Can scope rings be too low for prone?

P

Pistoler0

New member
I just took a precision rifle class at Frontsight NV, and when shooting prone I was putting the rifle butt on my clavicle and the recoil was hurting like the dickens (.308 bolt). So the trainer instructed me to put the buttstock heel below the collar bone and a bit closer towards the body's centerline and that seemed to help.

However, and after adjusting the scope forward for eye relief, I find that when prone my head is tilted too far down and my right eye has to strain looking up into the scope so far that I can even see my brow.

My question is: can a scope on a bolt action be mounted too low even if the bell of the scope does not touch the barrel of the rifle? I thought that as long as the scope clears the action, it should be mounted to be as close to the bore as possible.

My scope rings are Warne QD 1 inch low. I am going to try the medium.

Any other suggestions? Could it be the way I mount the rifle?
 
Your physical size, the size & shape of the stock, the way you mount the gun, the position you are shooting from, AND the height of the scope all play a part.

When you change from a shooting position where your torso is upright to one where it is not, angles change. The reach of your arms changes, your head position changes, and no one stock that is not adjustable can be a perfect fit for all positions.

And, what's perfect for you might be horrid for me.

Its not the scope height alone, its the scope height in combination with all the other factors that is creating your problem.
 
Most of the time it is best to mount a scope as low as practical on a hunting rifle. But depending on the exact scope, rifle stock, and individual shooting it mounting a little higher is better. You need to mount it so YOU can see through the scope.

Shooting target rifles is a little different than hunting, so you probably need to go higher. I'm betting it is perfect for you shooting offhand or even from a shooting bench. Prone is a little different.
 
We shoot three-position (standing, sitting, prone) with iron sights, which are as close to the barrel as possible.

I can't imagine how a 'scope could be "too low"..
 
You are straining to look up. It doesn't sounds the scope being too low. Try tilting your head up a little, so that your eye doesn't need to look up as much.

The scope can certainly be too low (probably not in this case) if the shooter has big head. The distance between the under side of the cheek bone to the eye that is. I would choose a proper ring hight over lower scope. Why is so important to have low scope? It is actually not that critical.

I would prefer higher ring with cheek rest for an AR platform. But that's not what we are talking about here.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Scope height is all a personal preference type issue. Myself , i tend to favor a high mounting to allow me to more comfortably get my chest off the ground. This gets your vitals off the ground and at long range helps to minimize the effects of your heartbeat causing you body to move your crosshairs. The downside of a higher mounted equipment is its easier to inadvertantly introduce rifle "cant". You just have to experiment and conclude what's the most comfortable and consistent with your body.
 
Road_Clam said:
Scope height is all a personal preference type issue. Myself , i tend to favor a high mounting to allow me to more comfortably get my chest off the ground. This gets your vitals off the ground and at long range helps to minimize the effects of your heartbeat causing you body to move your crosshairs. The downside of a higher mounted equipment is its easier to inadvertantly introduce rifle "cant". You just have to experiment and conclude what's the most comfortable and consistent with your body.
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Getting the chest off the ground makes sense. Didn't think of the heart beat, but that it makes it easier to keep my head up. However I have found it has much to do with the height of the front support (bipod), instead of the scope mount.

The increased scope mount height is very subtle; 1.5" versus 1.75" or 2". Canting hasn't been a problem for me.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
I think Roadclam has the right idea.
I changed my prone setup to raise the rifle up further from the ground.
Helped alot!
 
First mistake is a "Precision Rifle Class" at Front Sight. Second mistake is listening to that instructor.

Regardless of the shooting position the butt needs to be in the pocket of your shoulder.
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CORRECT!

Yes, it is possible to have a scope too high, or too low, for your NPA. Every rifle, and person is different, so the fit needs to be adjusted, which is also why most precision rifle rigs have adjustable LOP and cheek risers. In a competent precision class, one of the first things the instructor does is make sure the students rifle is correctly set up...most are not. That includes the scope level to the action, properly torqued and set in the sweet spot given the eyebox of the optic, the stock and the shooters NPA.

Optimally, scope as low as possible, rifle as low to the ground as possible. Folks with neck or back problems may not be able to get as low as optimal, fine, we adjust. Spine in line with the axis of the rifle, butt in the pocket. The NPA is derived from there. If you fell asleep and woke up, the crosshairs should be in the same spot. Muscling the rifle is poor fundamentals.
 
I am going to try with slightly higher rings (Medium instead of Low) and see if that is more comfortable.

I will also experiment with getting my chest off the ground, but it seems that I would have to muscle my body into that position a bit more than if I was just resting the whole body on the ground.
 
Best prone position is when your spine axis is about 20 to 25 degrees off from the bore axis. Your eye should be on the scope axis as it rests atop the stock cheek piece/comb.

Keep your front elbow under the rifle in place for all shots in the group. Otherwise the shots will string horizontally. Its It's ok if your chest is partially on the ground.

Good marksmen slung up in prone keep point of aim inside 1/3rd MOA area with most movement in the vertical plane. Hyperventilating a few times then cutting off the breathing provides enough oxygen to the eye for about 15 seconds of best vision.
 
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Bart B. said:
Best prone position is when your spine axis is about 20 to 25 degrees off from the bore axis. Your eye should be on the scope axis as it rests atop the stock cheek piece/comb.



Keep your front elbow under the rifle in place for all shots in the group. Otherwise the shots will string horizontally. Its It's ok if your chest is partially on the ground.



Good marksmen slung up in prone keep point of aim inside 1/3rd MOA area with most movement in the vertical plane. Hyperventilating a few times then cutting off the breathing provides enough oxygen to the eye for about 15 seconds of best vision.
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Pretty good advice, thanks.

Previous post suggested bore in line with spine. I don't it is possible. 20 to 25 degree sounds right.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Previous post suggested bore in line with spine. I don't it is possible. 20 to 25 degree sounds right.
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There is not a single competent Precision/Field rifle instructor that teaches anything but spine in line with axis of bore. Listening to folks who have not kept up with the current, or who talk about things irrelevant to the post never helps anyone learn proper technique.

The instructor wasn't able to help you diagnose your problem?
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Exactly! And why folks need to be very careful who they listen to, paid or not.
 
Pistoler0,

I am having a bit of trouble visualizing what you are describing. I can tell you that some rifle stocks have an adjustable rest under the toe of the stock to raise it to level with a bi-pod (Choate varmint stock, for example). The comb of your stock may be too high and cause interference with getting your head low enough. Your bipod's minimum leg height may be too tall and you need a shorter one (testing with the bipod folded or removed and using stackable sandbags as the front rest will tell you. That's an experiment you can conduct in your house (after the following Jeff Cooper's dryfiring admonition to clear the weapon and lock all the ammo in a box or drawer that is in another room).

If you get a photo from the side and from the front of the gun and send it to a stock maker, they may be able to tell you right off what is happening.

For the spine alignment argument, I think something is being lost in translation. Unless I am missing something, to get the bore line coincident with the spine, you would need to line your spine up with the target and then rest the rifle's butt on your forehead, letting someone else with a dental mirror report to you when the sights were on target. Trickshot stuff. But if by "in line" Mark Means parallel to the spine, that is not impossible, though it is not the prone position I was taught.
 
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