Can S&W afford to follow the HUD aggreement?

dZ

New member
IMHO S&W will not need to abide by any part of the contract.

They will just become the exculsive weapons provider of the Federal & local Governments!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Law enforcement and military exception. If law enforcement agencies or the military certify the need,exceptions to theserequirements may be made. Manufacturers will ask that these guns not be resold to the civilian market.[/quote]


Could a gun company afford to:
Within 12 months, handguns will be designed so they cannot be readily operated by a child under 6.

and then:
Internal locking device on all guns within 24 months.

and then:
Within 36 months, authorized user technology will be included in all new firearm models,

we are talking about a complete running redesign of every gun
in 12 months and a complete replacement of
every gun design in 36 months

dZ
 
dZ, I'm not a lawyer so I may be mistaken on this, but I've read the agreement and I don't believe it says that they have to stop selling their current products to the public but that in the time periods specified, they have to have the other stuff on the shelf. Which means that if you don't like their smart guns, you buy one of their dumb guns (the ones that have been around with us and have served us well in one form or another for over a century). Now, if it means that all of their products are going to incorporate these new features, then I completely agree with you.
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SAFETY AND DESIGN

All handguns must meet the following safety and design standards:

Second "hidden" serial number, to prevent criminals from obliterating serial numbers.
External locking device sold with all guns within 60 days.
Internal locking device on all guns within 24 months.
Smart Guns -- Authorized User Technology.
Manufacturers commit 2% of annual firearms revenues to the development of authorized user technology.
Within 36 months, authorized user technology will be included in all new firearm models, with the exception of
curios and collectors’ firearms.
If top eight manufacturers agree, authorized user technology will be included in all new firearms.
Child Safety. Within 12 months, handguns will be designed so they cannot be readily operated by a child under 6.
Performance test. All firearms will be subject to a performance test to ensure safety and quality.
Drop test. All firearms will be subject to a test to ensure they do not fire when dropped.

All pistols must meet the following additional requirements:

Safety device. Positive manually operated safety device.
Magazine disconnectors must be available on all pistols to customers who desire the feature, within 12 months.
Chamber load indicators on all pistols, showing whether the pistol is loaded, within 12 months.
Large capacity magazines. New firearm designs will not be able to accept large-capacity magazines that were
manufactured prior to September 1994. (Manufacture of such magazines has been prohibited since that date.)
 
Well then, if other gun makers follow in their footsteps (and I think that sooner or later they all will), then it looks like the Anti's have won. See my plan for a possible way to still get out of this mess.
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FUD, I would like to see nothing more then S&W becoming American owned again and owned by the Shooting Gun Owning Crowd of America,/You and me. Is their any Lawyers among us that could look into this and set the possble Wheels in motion? As I have taught my kids Never Say Never and Nothing IS Impossible :D I'm game, I would surely invest and then tell Klinton and the good ole boys to shove it :D

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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
 
here is a snip from the full text of the S&W contract http://www.isra.org/smithagree.pdf
local text version is here: http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=25834

I. Safety and design.
A. Each firearm make and model sold by each manufacturer party to this
Agreement shall be attested by ATF or an agreed upon proofing entity
against the following standards. Existing makes and models shall meet
these standards within 60 days of execution of this Agreement unless a
longer period is specified in the standard. New makes and models shall
not be manufactured and sold after the execution of this Agreement
unless they conform to these standards.
1. Standards applicable to all handguns:
a. Second “hidden” serial number. The gun must have both a
visible serial number on the exterior of the frame or receiver, as
well as a second serial number hidden on the interior of frame or
receiver(e.g., under the grips) or visible only with the aid of an
optical instrument.
b. External locking device. As in interim measure, until the
implementation of I.A.1.c, within 60 days of execution of the
Agreement, each firearm shall be supplied with an external
locking device that effectively prevents the operation of the
firearm when locked.
c. Internal locking device. Within 24 months of execution of the
Agreement, each firearm shall have a built-in, on-board locking
system, by which the firearm can only be operated with a key or
combination or other mechanism unique to that gun.
d. Authorized user technology. The manufacturer parties to this
Agreement shall each commit two percent of annual firearms
sales revenues to the development of a technology that
recognizes only authorized users and permits a gun to be used
only by authorized persons. Within 36 months of the date of
execution of this Agreement, this technology shall be
incorporated in all new firearm designs, with the exception of
curios and collectors’ firearms. This requirement does not apply
to existing designs currently in production.
If the eight firearms manufacturers and/or importers with the
largest United States firearms sales volume agree to incorporate
authorized user technology in all firearms, the manufacturer
parties to this Agreement will incorporate authorized user
technology in all firearms.
e. Child safety. Within 12 months of execution of the Agreement,
each firearm shall be designed so that it cannot be readily
operated by a child under the age of 6. Such mechanisms
include: making the trigger pull resistance at least ten pounds in
the double action mode; or designing the firing mechanism so
that an average five year old’s hands would be too small to
operate the gun; or requiring multiple, sequenced actions in order
to fire the gun.
f. Minimum barrel length. Each firearm make and model must
have a barrel length of at least 3:, unless it has an average group
diameter test result of 1.7” or less at seven yards, 3.9” or less at
14 yards, and 6.3” or less at 21 yards. The average group
diameter test result is the arithmetic mean of the results of three
separate trials, each performed on a different sample firearm of
the make and model at issue. For each trial, the firearm shall fire
five rounds at a target from the specified distance and the largest
spread in inches between the center of any of the holes made in a
test target shall be the result of the trial.
g. Performance test: A sample of each firearm make and model
will be test-fired with “proof cartridges” (cartridges loaded to
generate excess pressure as set forth in accepted specifications
for proof cartridges) to ensure the integrity of the material. At
least on cartridge shall be fired from each chamber. Following
this test firing, the firearm will be examined for hairline cracks or
other signs of material failure and will pass this test only if there
are no hairline cracks or other signs of material failure. Each
firearm make and model shall also pass the following
performance test: the gun shall fire 600 rounds, stopping only
every 100 rounds to tighten any loose screws and to clean the
gun (if required by the cleaning schedule recommended in the
manual), or as needed to refill the empty magazine or cylinder to
capacity before continuing. For any gun that loads other than
with a detachable magazine, the tester shall pause every 50
rounds for ten minutes. The tester shall use the ammunition
recommended in the user’s manual, or if none is recommended,
any standard ammunition of the correct caliber in new condition.
A gun shall pass this test if it fires the first 20 rounds without a
malfunction and the full 600 rounds with no more than 6
malfunctions and without any crack or breakage of an operating
part of the gun that increases the danger of injury. Malfunctions
caused by failure to clean and lubricate, or by defective
ammunition, shall not be counted.
h. Drop test. Pass the more rigorous of: (a) the SAAMI Standard
drop test in effect on the date the firearm is sold; or (b) the following
test: The gun shall be test-loaded, set such that it is ready to fire and
dropped onto a steel plate or equivalent material of similar hardness
from a height of one meter from each of the following positions: (1)
normal firing position; (2) upside down; (3) on the grip; (4) on the
muzzle; (5) on either side; and (6) on the exposed hammer or striker
(or, if no exposed hammer or striker, on the rearmost part of the
gun). If the gun is so designed so that its hammer or striker may be
set in other positions, it shall be tested with the hammer or striker in
each such position (but otherwise ready to fire).
2. Additional Standards for pistols:
a. Safety Device. The pistol must have a positive manually
operated safety device as determined by standards related to
imported guns promulgated by ATF.
b. Minimum length and height standards. The pistol’s combined
length and height must not be less than 10” with the height being
at least 4” and the length at least 6”, unless it has an average
group diameter test result of 1.7” or less at seven yards, 3.9” or
less at 14 yards, and 6.3” or less at 21 yards. The average group
diameter test result is the arithmetic mean of the results of three
separate trials, each performed on a different sample firearm of
the make and model at issue. For each trial, the firearm shall fire
five rounds at a target from the specified distance and the largest
spread in inches between the center of any of the holes made in a
test target shall be the result of the trial.
c. Magazine disconnector. Within 12 months of the execution of
the Agreement, each pistol shall have a magazine disconnector
available for those customers who desire the feature.
d. Chamber load indicator. Within 12 months of the execution of
the Agreement, each pistol shall have a chamber load indicator
painted in a prominent, contrasting color or a feature that allows
the operator physically to see the round in the chamber.
e. Large capacity magazines. No pistol make or model designed
after January 1, 2000 shall be able to accept magazines
manufactured prior to September 14, 1994, with a greater than 10
round capacity, and such models shall not be capable fo being
easily modified to accept such magazines. Nor shall ammunition
magazines that are able to accept more than 10 rounds be sold by
the manufacturer parties to this Agreement or their authorized
dealers and distributors. See part II.A.1.h below.
f. Additional safety features. Each pistol must have a firing pin
block or lock.
3. Additional standard for revolvers. Each revolver make and model
must pass a safety test. Each make and model must have a safety feature
which automatically (for double action revolver) or by manual operation
(for a single actin revolver) causes the hammer to retract to a point
where the firing pin does not rest upon the primer of the cartridge. The
safety device must withstand the impact of a weight equal to the weight
of the revolver dropping from a distance of 1 meter in a line parallel to
the barrel upon the rear of the hammer spur, a total of 5 times.
B. Law enforcement and military exception. An exception to a
requirement of paragraph A may be granted for firearms manufactured
or imported for sale to a law enforcement agency or the military if the
law enforcement agency or military organization certifies to the
manufacturer party to this Agreement that the exception is necessary for
official purposes. Where a law enforcement agency authorizes or
requires its officer to purchase firearms individually for official use, an
appropriate certification from the agency will be permitted to apply to
sales to a number of individual officers. The manufacturer party to this
Agreement shall maintain the certification in its records and provide a
copy to the Oversight Commission. Firearms sold to law enforcement or
the military pursuant to this exception which do not comply with the
design standards of this Agreement, will be accompanied by a statement:
1. “On [date], [manufacturer parties to this Agreement] and
[governmental parties to this Agreement] entered into an
Agreement establishing certain design standards for firearms sold
to civilians. Pursuant to that Agreement, we are obligated to
request that you not resell this firearm to civilians. This statement
is not intended to suggest that there are any design flaws with this
firearm, and you remain entitled to dispose of it in any lawful
manner.”
 
The agreement reads the following:

d. Authorized user technology. The manufacturer parties to this
Agreement shall each commit two percent of annual firearms
sales revenues to the development of a technology that
recognizes only authorized users and permits a gun to be used
only by authorized persons. Within 36 months of the date of
execution of this Agreement, this technology shall be
incorporated in all new firearm designs, with the exception of
curios and collectors’ firearms. This requirement does not apply
to existing designs currently in production.


---------------------------------------------------------
The agreement DOES NOT require that existing firearms be converted to smart guns nor that they be terminated from production.

This bull crap agreement is a hard enough pill to swallow. We do not need any misinformation to go with it.

Robert
 
thats why i am asking cause:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A. Each firearm make and model sold by each manufacturer party to this
Agreement shall be attested by ATF or an agreed upon proofing entity
against the following standards. Existing makes and models shall meet
these standards within 60 days of execution of this Agreement unless a
longer period is specified in the standard.
New makes and models shall
not be manufactured and sold after the execution of this Agreement
unless they conform to these standards.[/quote]

certainly sounds like every handgun gets an internal lock and all new designs in the future are smartguns

S&W has 56 handguns in the current catalog

dZ
 
It certainly appears that S&W believes they can afford to do this at the expense of we the people. When you study the articles in the WSJ pertaining to how this marxist extortion occured and begin to understand just how much a dirty dealer Ed Schultz is himself, you have to walk away hoping that this action will destroy Smith and Wesson as we know it. Clearly, this deed is designed soley to further the interests of S&W by giving them an edge into the police market since their product alone will not cut the mustard.

Do I think that all of the other players will follow suit? Indeed not! Glock has already made it public that they will not have a part in this treachery. Some of the other makers must realize that this will mean an end to their industry. I have berated Paul Januzzo, VP and General Counsel of Glock, for agreeing to the ballistic fingerprint scheme but God Bless him for standing up to the evil being wrought by a president who is circumventing the balance of power at every chance. Let's hope the Republicans wake up and stand behind Glock, Beretta and others.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."

[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited March 22, 2000).]
 
Just think of the pressure that will now be placed on local and national law enforcement to use the S&W equipment since they are "working with us in the fight against gun violence." I think it is a bad deal in the long run for S&W, but I can see how they might make a mint by this decision, especially if none of the other makers follow them.
Kiffster
 
DZ,

In a way, you are correct. In order for S&W to comply, it does have to modify its current line in the next 24 months. Will those be considered new models? Not a lawyer, don't know? If you read the cronoligy of the events that lead to this agreement, Schulz specifically stated that he would not sign on if current models were not exempted.

Still don't really think that this agreement means squat. A agreement needs players in order to work. All Smith & Wesson and HUD did was set up the game. If WE ALL do not play, it flops. That simple. There is no mandate here.

Best thing to do now is go to your favorite dealer, look at them straight in the eye and tell them that you will not support a S & W Authorized dealer.

Robert



[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited March 22, 2000).]
 
Look at the bright side, all those nice old S&W revolvers will increase in value.

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BOYCOTT SLICK & WESSON

"To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it."
Confucius
 
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