caliber question
- Thread starter tsillik
- Start date
So was the .38-40. Derived from the .44-40 Win. Except it used a .401" bullet.
Trying to figure out why a cartridge is called what it is can give you brain damage.
Worse with military cartridges. .308 Win is also 7.62 x 51, except that mathematically, .308" doesn't convert to 7.62mm. Converts to 7.82mm. Then there's stuff like the 7.5 Swiss. Uses the same .308" bullet. It can make your head explode.
Trying to figure out why a cartridge is called what it is can give you brain damage.
Worse with military cartridges. .308 Win is also 7.62 x 51, except that mathematically, .308" doesn't convert to 7.62mm. Converts to 7.82mm. Then there's stuff like the 7.5 Swiss. Uses the same .308" bullet. It can make your head explode.
robinsroost
New member
Most of the hyphenated numbers like the 45-70 you mentioned, were originally black powder cartridges and the first number referenced the caliber, (not always exact), and the second number referenced the usual volume of black powder. Other examples include 44-40, 30-30, 32-20, 30-40 kraig, and 25-20. In calibers designed for the military, and some civilian rounds, the first number references the caliber and the second number references the year of invention or the year of patent. Examples include the 30-06, 30-03, and 25-06. Most European designed calibers, and now some American ones, have metric designations like, 5.54mm, 5.56mm and 6mm. Confused yet? Robin 
Cartridge names are a unique and interesting field, and can be very confusing but there are some general rules, and then there are specific exceptions.
The one rule that everyone follows is the cartridge name has something to do with the people who first made it. Beyond that, lots of different things happen.
Start in the earliest days of cased ammunition. There are no official standards. Eventually a general custom about names developed, in the US, and another in Europe. And those changed, over time, as well.
With rimfire rounds, the very first were for indoor target shooting, and essentially were a lead ball (BB) in a modified percussion cap, making a complete round of primer only powered ammunition. Today we call the modern version the BB Cap. A conical bullet with a tiny bit of powder is a CB Cap. Heavier bullet, longer case, more powder, its the .22 Short. Same bullet, longer case, more powder, its the .22 Long. Heavier bullet, more powder, it became the .22 Long, Rifle (.22LR and the most popular of all, today)
With centerfire rounds, its a bit different. The system evolved, and besides the maker's name, it included the (nominal) caliber, powder charge, and bullet weight in grains. .45-70-500 Govt is an example. .45 Cal, 70gr powder, 500gr bullet. after some use, the last number got dropped, and its just the .45-70 today. Other rounds from that era follow the same general practice, caliber and powder charge (black powder). A few of the later smokeless powder rounds kept this practice as part of their name, but the actual amount of powder could be different from the name. (.30-30 and .30-40 Krag are a couple of examples)
Pistol rounds were about the same, but different...(yeah, I know,)
the difference was in the relationship of the caliber number in the name to the actual bore and bullet size of the guns. And this changed again with the introduction of the inside lubricated bullet. Won't cover all the details here, but this is the reason our modern .38s are actually .36s (.357") and our .44s are actually .43s (.429")
More modern rifle and pistol round names are more closely related to something about the bore, or bullet size, generally. The .30s are the land diameter of the barrel (.300) while the .308s are the groove to groove diameter of the same barrel (.308") for example.
Europeans used the metric system, both bore/bullet size (could be either) and case length in mm to describe the round. This is 9x19 or 8x57mm. Rimmed cases had an R at the end of the name, 7.62x54R (R stands for rimmed, NOT Russian)
and then there are the exceptions to the general practices, which, you pretty much just have to learn as stand alone things. The .30-06 is one. Unlike the old .45-70, .44-40, .38-55, etc black powder rounds the .30-06 is NOT a .30 cal with 06 gr of powder. IT is the .30 cal, adopted by the US GOVT in 1906.
other exceptions are the .250-3000 and the .22-250 Varminter/Remington.
The .250-3000 Savage was the first commercial round to hit 3000fps, so they put that in the name. The .22-250 is a .22 cal round, made from .250Savage cases (originally, and as a wildcat) The .22-250 Rem is the wildcat .22-250, adopted by Remington and standardized.
.22 hornet, .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .221Rem Fireball, .222 Rem, .222 Rem Mag, .223 Rem, .224 Weatherby, .225 Winchester, .22-250, and .220 Swift ALL SHOOT THE SAME .224cal BULLETS.
The difference in caliber numbers is for marketing. Each one has a different size case, some rimmed, some not, and each one gives different velocities, but all shoot the same bullets.
Confused yet???
it gets even worse when you look at the British system....
In the US, when a new round is made by taking an older one and necking the case up, or down, the new caliber is the first number, the parent case is the second. The British do it exactly the other way around. Maybe that's because they drive on the "wrong" side of the road, I don't know...
So, there are several different systems in use, and they overlap. And there are exceptions to the systems as well. A fun area of study for some, and one that teaches the history of cartridge development along the way.
Reloading manuals usually have a short history of the rounds, a fair place to start. Cartridges of the World is a good reference, but is known to have errors.
If you want chapter and verse in detail, there are several good books, and cartridge collectors who can tell you more detail than you probably want to know.
Hope this helps, but understand if it only confuses you worse!
The one rule that everyone follows is the cartridge name has something to do with the people who first made it. Beyond that, lots of different things happen.
Start in the earliest days of cased ammunition. There are no official standards. Eventually a general custom about names developed, in the US, and another in Europe. And those changed, over time, as well.
With rimfire rounds, the very first were for indoor target shooting, and essentially were a lead ball (BB) in a modified percussion cap, making a complete round of primer only powered ammunition. Today we call the modern version the BB Cap. A conical bullet with a tiny bit of powder is a CB Cap. Heavier bullet, longer case, more powder, its the .22 Short. Same bullet, longer case, more powder, its the .22 Long. Heavier bullet, more powder, it became the .22 Long, Rifle (.22LR and the most popular of all, today)
With centerfire rounds, its a bit different. The system evolved, and besides the maker's name, it included the (nominal) caliber, powder charge, and bullet weight in grains. .45-70-500 Govt is an example. .45 Cal, 70gr powder, 500gr bullet. after some use, the last number got dropped, and its just the .45-70 today. Other rounds from that era follow the same general practice, caliber and powder charge (black powder). A few of the later smokeless powder rounds kept this practice as part of their name, but the actual amount of powder could be different from the name. (.30-30 and .30-40 Krag are a couple of examples)
Pistol rounds were about the same, but different...(yeah, I know,
)the difference was in the relationship of the caliber number in the name to the actual bore and bullet size of the guns. And this changed again with the introduction of the inside lubricated bullet. Won't cover all the details here, but this is the reason our modern .38s are actually .36s (.357") and our .44s are actually .43s (.429")
More modern rifle and pistol round names are more closely related to something about the bore, or bullet size, generally. The .30s are the land diameter of the barrel (.300) while the .308s are the groove to groove diameter of the same barrel (.308") for example.
Europeans used the metric system, both bore/bullet size (could be either) and case length in mm to describe the round. This is 9x19 or 8x57mm. Rimmed cases had an R at the end of the name, 7.62x54R (R stands for rimmed, NOT Russian)
and then there are the exceptions to the general practices, which, you pretty much just have to learn as stand alone things. The .30-06 is one. Unlike the old .45-70, .44-40, .38-55, etc black powder rounds the .30-06 is NOT a .30 cal with 06 gr of powder. IT is the .30 cal, adopted by the US GOVT in 1906.
other exceptions are the .250-3000 and the .22-250 Varminter/Remington.
The .250-3000 Savage was the first commercial round to hit 3000fps, so they put that in the name. The .22-250 is a .22 cal round, made from .250Savage cases (originally, and as a wildcat) The .22-250 Rem is the wildcat .22-250, adopted by Remington and standardized.
.22 hornet, .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .221Rem Fireball, .222 Rem, .222 Rem Mag, .223 Rem, .224 Weatherby, .225 Winchester, .22-250, and .220 Swift ALL SHOOT THE SAME .224cal BULLETS.
The difference in caliber numbers is for marketing. Each one has a different size case, some rimmed, some not, and each one gives different velocities, but all shoot the same bullets.
Confused yet???
it gets even worse when you look at the British system....
In the US, when a new round is made by taking an older one and necking the case up, or down, the new caliber is the first number, the parent case is the second. The British do it exactly the other way around. Maybe that's because they drive on the "wrong" side of the road, I don't know...
So, there are several different systems in use, and they overlap. And there are exceptions to the systems as well. A fun area of study for some, and one that teaches the history of cartridge development along the way.
Reloading manuals usually have a short history of the rounds, a fair place to start. Cartridges of the World is a good reference, but is known to have errors.
If you want chapter and verse in detail, there are several good books, and cartridge collectors who can tell you more detail than you probably want to know.
Hope this helps, but understand if it only confuses you worse!
There is no standard procedure for naming cartridges or calibers. Over the years and in different countries many different methods have been used and it can be very confusing.
At times the barrel diameter inside the rifling is used, 30-06, 300 Savage, 300 WM for example. At other times the diameter outsidethe lands is used, .308 for example. They are all shoot the same diameter bullets.
Sometimes the diameter of the bullet is used (.357 magnum), and sometimes the diameter if the case is used (38 Special). They both shoot the same diameter bullet.
A 275 Rigby and 7X57 Mauser are exactly the same cartridge, just different names depending on the country they were made in.
In a nutshell, when an inventor develops a new cartridge and gun they are free to name it anything they want.
At times the barrel diameter inside the rifling is used, 30-06, 300 Savage, 300 WM for example. At other times the diameter outsidethe lands is used, .308 for example. They are all shoot the same diameter bullets.
Sometimes the diameter of the bullet is used (.357 magnum), and sometimes the diameter if the case is used (38 Special). They both shoot the same diameter bullet.
A 275 Rigby and 7X57 Mauser are exactly the same cartridge, just different names depending on the country they were made in.
In a nutshell, when an inventor develops a new cartridge and gun they are free to name it anything they want.
Yes, and ...no...
I'll have to check a couple of sources to be certain, but I think the first American smokeless cartridge designed for sporting rifles was .......
the .30WCF!!!
(for those in the know, this is a bit of an inside joke. The .30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) was the original name of the .30-30 Winchester)
Not certain when the switch happened, (maybe the 1920s, I'll have to do a bit of research later today..) but you do not find any of the early "30-30s" marked ".30-30", they are all marked ".30 WCF".
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Yup, welcome to the wild and whacky world of cartridge nomenclature.
For the record, my Model 94 Winchester, made sometime between 1943 and 1948 says 30WCF on the barrel, not 30-30.
Sometimes one firearm manufacturer did not want to honor a competitor. I have an old Marlin Model 1894 made in 1895. The callout on the barrel is simply 44W. Yes, it is a 44-40.
And the first Winchester Model 1873 rifles had no caliber call out on them at all, because the only cartridge they were chambered for was the 44-40. The cartridge had been introduced with the model. Later, when the '73 was chambered for 38-40, they simply said 38 Cal, or 44 Cal on them.
Like this. Yes, this one is chambered for 38-40. It was made in 1886 if I recall correctly.
Sometimes company pride enters into it. Any Smith and Wesson revolver chambered for 38 Special or 44 Special will always say 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG or 44 S&W SPECIAL CTG on the barrel. Yes, they are the same as the regular 38 Special or 44 Special, but S&W developed those cartridges and they don't want anybody to forget it. CTG stands for Cartridge. I wish I had a dollar for everytime somebody asks a question about their 38 S&W Special CTG revolver.
How about this one? It is a Merwin Hulbert, chambered for 44-40. The callout of Calibre Winchester 1873 means it is chambered for 44-40, the most common chambering of the Winchester Model 1873 when this gun was made in the early 1880s.
Now, should we start an argument about whether it should be Winchester Center Fire, Winchester Centre Fire, or Winchester Central Fire?
For the record, my Model 94 Winchester, made sometime between 1943 and 1948 says 30WCF on the barrel, not 30-30.
Sometimes one firearm manufacturer did not want to honor a competitor. I have an old Marlin Model 1894 made in 1895. The callout on the barrel is simply 44W. Yes, it is a 44-40.
And the first Winchester Model 1873 rifles had no caliber call out on them at all, because the only cartridge they were chambered for was the 44-40. The cartridge had been introduced with the model. Later, when the '73 was chambered for 38-40, they simply said 38 Cal, or 44 Cal on them.
Like this. Yes, this one is chambered for 38-40. It was made in 1886 if I recall correctly.
Sometimes company pride enters into it. Any Smith and Wesson revolver chambered for 38 Special or 44 Special will always say 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG or 44 S&W SPECIAL CTG on the barrel. Yes, they are the same as the regular 38 Special or 44 Special, but S&W developed those cartridges and they don't want anybody to forget it. CTG stands for Cartridge. I wish I had a dollar for everytime somebody asks a question about their 38 S&W Special CTG revolver.
How about this one? It is a Merwin Hulbert, chambered for 44-40. The callout of Calibre Winchester 1873 means it is chambered for 44-40, the most common chambering of the Winchester Model 1873 when this gun was made in the early 1880s.
Now, should we start an argument about whether it should be Winchester Center Fire, Winchester Centre Fire, or Winchester Central Fire?
Jim Watson
New member
You could probably find old boxes to answer that.
And the .38 Colt Special was clearly superior to the .38 S&W Special.
General Hatcher said so, giving its flatpointed bullet a 5% advantage in figuring "stopping power." (There is no other difference than bullet shape and the Colt type is long gone.)
Savage actually got ammo headstamped .32 SAP for Savage Automatic Pistol even though it was the same round as .32 ACP.
The bore vs groove diameter designation can be tricky too.
The .256 Newton was named by bore (land to land) diameter and shoots the .264" bullets of the various 6.5mm rounds (also the bore diameter in metric).
Yet the .257 Roberts has a barrel with that groove diameter and shoots bullets that size.
Another marketing idea, the Lazzeroni rounds are named by bullet/groove diameter in millimeters, which is seldom done. This leads to a 7.82 Warbird shooting the same diameter bullet as a .308 Winchester (groove/bullet) or a 7.62 NATO or a .300 Winchester Magnum (bore.)
Confusion is added by Internet English in which at least 3 out of 4 people who drive a lead slug through a barrel, measure the high spots, and cheerfully post to the gunboards that their .30 caliber barrel has a "bore diameter" of .3085"
And the .38 Colt Special was clearly superior to the .38 S&W Special.
General Hatcher said so, giving its flatpointed bullet a 5% advantage in figuring "stopping power." (There is no other difference than bullet shape and the Colt type is long gone.)
Savage actually got ammo headstamped .32 SAP for Savage Automatic Pistol even though it was the same round as .32 ACP.
The bore vs groove diameter designation can be tricky too.
The .256 Newton was named by bore (land to land) diameter and shoots the .264" bullets of the various 6.5mm rounds (also the bore diameter in metric).
Yet the .257 Roberts has a barrel with that groove diameter and shoots bullets that size.
Another marketing idea, the Lazzeroni rounds are named by bullet/groove diameter in millimeters, which is seldom done. This leads to a 7.82 Warbird shooting the same diameter bullet as a .308 Winchester (groove/bullet) or a 7.62 NATO or a .300 Winchester Magnum (bore.)
Confusion is added by Internet English in which at least 3 out of 4 people who drive a lead slug through a barrel, measure the high spots, and cheerfully post to the gunboards that their .30 caliber barrel has a "bore diameter" of .3085"
Visited a friend today who is my go to guru in certain fields and has an extensive reference library.
One of them gives a serial # range (and a rather large one) over which the barrel marking were changed. Model of 1894 became Model 94 and .30WCF became .30-30 Win. The range given begins in the late 20s and ends in the early 40s. It appears the model name change came first and the ctg name change later. So you could have a model of 1894 in .30WCF, a model 94 in .30WCF, and a model 94 in .30-30 all within those years production.
Winchester made some 94s in 42, but not a lot, and if they made more than a very few in 43 I would be surprised. Winchester, like every other business expected big changes when the war started in Dec 41, and kept their regular production going at varying levels for the few months until the military contracts began rolling in, which began in early 42.
The information available says last ser# in 42 was in the low 1.2million range. No other info is available until 1948 when the last ser# is 1,500,000.
So, clearly there were some 94s made during those years, but how many, when is not available to me.
I did find out another interesting thing, apparently the .30WCF was NOT the "First" smokeless sporting rifle round offered to the US public. The honor should go to the .25-35, which actually shipped from the Winchester warehouse in May 1895 while the first .30WCF shipped in July!
One of them gives a serial # range (and a rather large one) over which the barrel marking were changed. Model of 1894 became Model 94 and .30WCF became .30-30 Win. The range given begins in the late 20s and ends in the early 40s. It appears the model name change came first and the ctg name change later. So you could have a model of 1894 in .30WCF, a model 94 in .30WCF, and a model 94 in .30-30 all within those years production.
Winchester made some 94s in 42, but not a lot, and if they made more than a very few in 43 I would be surprised. Winchester, like every other business expected big changes when the war started in Dec 41, and kept their regular production going at varying levels for the few months until the military contracts began rolling in, which began in early 42.
The information available says last ser# in 42 was in the low 1.2million range. No other info is available until 1948 when the last ser# is 1,500,000.
So, clearly there were some 94s made during those years, but how many, when is not available to me.
I did find out another interesting thing, apparently the .30WCF was NOT the "First" smokeless sporting rifle round offered to the US public. The honor should go to the .25-35, which actually shipped from the Winchester warehouse in May 1895 while the first .30WCF shipped in July!
Jim Watson
New member
When did the Marlin 1893 get .30WCF and what did they stamp it?
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Yes. When I looked up my serial number (13910XX) at the Winchester Dates of Manufacture website, the answer that came back was:
The year of manufacture for serial number 13910XX is Between 1943 and 1948..
No records are available from 1943 - 1948.
