Calculating groups. Quick question.

Pond James Pond

New member
I have just downloaded the free version of On Target to see what all the fuss is about and from there decide if I want one of the two paid versions.

So far I'm having a lot of fun, but I want to check some things.

Whenever people quote a group size, they give a single value of MOA. That number could be 1.7, for example. However, that group will have width and height and both those planes will have a MOA value. So how to you come to a single value from those?

Also which field will give me that number on the On Target screen view?
So far I have several values in MOA.

Thanks.
 
Whenever people quote a group size, they give a single value of MOA. That number could be 1.7, for example. However, that group will have width and height and both those planes will have a MOA value. So how to you come to a single value from those?
MOA (Minute Of Angle) value is not as commonly used as is extreme spread of the center to center of the bullet strikes measurement in thousandths of an inch. The only measurement that is of concern is the widest spread. In other words, if a group were to be egg-shaped, the only measurement that need be made is from end to end of that shape.
 
When talking about the size of a group, the shape is irrelevant. True, we hope for a relatively circular pattern, but the distance between farthest centers tells us the MOA. Vertical or horizontal orientation doesn't matter in the measurement.
 
>I have just downloaded the free version of On Target to see what all the fuss is about and from there decide if I want one of the two paid versions.
So far I'm having a lot of fun, but I want to check some things.
Whenever people quote a group size, they give a single value of MOA. That number could be 1.7, for example. However, that group will have width and height and both those planes will have a MOA value. So how to you come to a single value from those?
Also which field will give me that number on the On Target screen view?
So far I have several values in MOA.<

I don't know anything about the program you mention, but you're asking highly relevant questions.

People like to quote what "group" they got, often with no mention of how many rounds went into it, and often w/ even no mention of the shooting distance.

The directional spread of the groups, particularly if they keep repeating group to group, are diagnostic of certain shooter technique problems, wind shifts during shooting, weapon problems, etc., that I have no expertise in, and are hardly ever addressed. (Breathing: vertical spread; wind: horizontal spread; that exhausts my insights.)

I've come to the personal conclusion that to calculate a group for a rifle, I will use 30 rounds on 6 targets, and take the mean of the maximum center-to-center results of each of the six to be the "group" at that range. Of course, that won't be a cold barrel group.... and it will ignore any statistical treatment of normal or otherwise "distributions"; it's just a mean average over 30 samples.

The only reason I use 6 targets is that I want to limit the effect of the bullet holes from messing up the sight picture during shooting.
 
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the one to quote is the "maximum spread CTC" value?

Yes, although the last time I used the program it used different wording. I guess I need to get the latest version! It's a pretty cool program, that's for sure.
 
Conventionally, a group is of five shots. Unless otherwise specified it will be at 100 yards with a rifle, 25 yards with a handgun. One reason for that is that rifle groups tend to spread out as a rifle warms up, and five shots is about all you can get with many rifles before groups open up. Also, standard target shooting (derived from military shooting) is based on five shot "strings".

The CTC measurement is used because it is free of bias toward larger calibers. If the measurement were taken edge to edge of the bullet holes, a group fired with a .45 caliber would always be greater than one fired with a .22. However, one method of measurement is to measure the outside edges of the widest shots, then subtract half the diameter of the bullet. That will give the same measurement as CTC and can be easier to measure.

Jim
 
It is easier to measure between corresponding edges such as left edge to left edge or top to top. It is the same as center to center and can be measured more precisely. No subtracting necessary.Three shot groups are often used for hunting as you are not likely to get more than that number of shots before you either kill the game, or it runs off.
 
I use the Math Teacher measurement, same result, easier to align with the scale. BUT if you are shooting at close range or with a very accurate gun and getting "one ragged hole" groups, it won't work.
 
Seems that in all cases you can always measure maximum overall distance, regardless of how the shots are dispersed, outside-to-outside, then subtract 1 bore size. That gives CTC equivalent.

While it's hard enough to imagine what the software is modeling to predict a dispersion at all (if indeed that's what it's doing), it's even harder for me to imagine what basis it would have for modeling dispersion in two axes. For example, one could assume a muzzle velocity distribution and from that get a vertical trajectory distribution (one axis). But you'd have to be modeling drift to predict a horizontal axis trajectory variance. (Drift is the change in bullet trajectory due to aerodynamic lift acting on the bullet due in part to its angle of attack in flight).

Anyway, providing a single MOA value could be handy because that value allows you to calculate extreme spread at any range--although that calculation is going to become less valid as range increases.

A single MOA value is somewhat like the 'circular error probable' (CEP) values calculated for mass consumption Powerpoints in the world of orbital mechanics, and re-entry vehicles in particular. So, take a nuke re-entry vehicle as an example. These are designed to have extremely predictable trajectories, but variables impact those trajectories just like they do a bullet.

The best models of reality predict the re-entry vehicle will impact Earth somewhere inside a very long, narrow ellipse. But the Powerpoint audience doesn't want to hear about ellipses or how long they are (the equivalent of the max group dimension). So, the models calculate the area of ellipse, then calculate the radius of a circle having that same area. That radius is then the figure cited as the 'circular error probable'. It's utterly meaningless, but easy to understand.

That sort of measurement would actually be more representative of probable hits in shooting than is the overall max size that we use, in some ways. It's neither the worst case nor the best case, but a balance between the two. We seldom are asking "What is the most likely distance my next shot will be from my aim point?", which is the question better answered by a value somewhere between the min and max group size. More often, we're asking "How big will my group be?", and that's best answered by the value gotten from measuring the biggest dimension of previous groups.

I thought one of the main purposes of shooting was to get away from the pain and agony of computers and software. :D
 
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