C96 Mauser Broomhandle help

C

Cossack

New member
I bought a c96 at a gunshow today. It's not in fantastic shape, but doesn't have major pitting, has fair rifling, and all numbers match except the grips, which I was told are not original. I bought it under the assumption - and the seller's assumption - that it's a 7.63. While inspecting the rifling again after purchase, I decided to do a "drop test" by inserting a 7.63 cartridge bullet down in the muzzle. I figured if the bore was really worn it would sink in up to or close to the case neck. instead the cartridge sank in up to the shoulder and had room to wiggle. I tried a 9mm cartridge and it set in partway up the bullet, comparable to the depth it sank into the muzzle of my 9mm Hi Power. Upon disassembling, I held a 7.63 cartridge in the chamber and shined a light down the muzzle. I could see the bullet and the case neck clearly, with even a little room around the case neck. The bore appears much to big for a .30 mauser.

I'm assuming this is a 9mm. Is there any way to tell for sure from markings, other tips, or should I take it to a smith?

For what it's worth, the serial is 4041xx, which indicates WWI era production. It's full size - not Bolo.
 
Tough to tell without actually measuring. Lots of those came out of China worn to near smooth-bores. Many have been relined to both 7.63 and 9mm, and I don't know if any of the shops that do the conversions mark their work.
 
Take a picture of any markings to determine if it's at least potentially a regular 9 mm. The red 9 (or lack there off) is not a good indicator, and about 15% of the total production were 9 mm, so it's not rare.
Then again, the barrel cannot be changed as it's machined from the same blank as the slide. So a lot of 7.63 were drilled out to 9 mm, in varying degrees of quality.
 
C96 pistols were made in 9mm Mauser, but they are rarely encountered. They were also made in 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger) on a German government contract during WWI; those are the "Red 9" pistols so-called because the number 9 was burned into the grips and painted red.

But today, the most common 9mm C96 pistols were those imported some years back from China. Almost all were in terrible shape, so importers had the original 7.63mm barrels reamed out and re-rifled, or drilled out and replaced, to take 9mm Luger. Some of those were give phony Red 9 grips, but they still have the original 1000 meter sights and all the other characteristics of the regular 7.63mm pistols they originally were. They are at the bottom of the C96 desirability chain but can fill a gap in a handgun collection until something better comes along.

Jim
 
Thanks all. James K, I think that must be what I have. It has the 1000 Meter sights and no indentation in the mag follower, so it doesn't seem to be a factory 9mm. If it was bored out though, it must have been a long time ago, because the condition of the bore matches the external condition of the gun. There's rifleing there, but it looks 100 years old :) - kind of like the .32-20 Model 92 Winchester and Model 1903 Colt .32 I used to have, both from the 1st decade or so of the 20th Century.
 
As far as I know, the only caliber markings on the C96s made in 9mm were on the grips, not on the gun itself.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe that the Chinese ever made 9mm versions -- just 7.63 and .45 ACP.

The markings on the gun can often be a good way of determining whether the gun is Chinese or not. Many versions tried to copy the German markings, and normally failed in any number of ways, from misspellings to misplacements to wrong fonts, etc.
 
My dad had a modern Chinese "Schnellfeuer" copy in 9mm with detachable mags. It was super cool...and wouldn't go more than around or two without a failure to feed. But I don't think the Chinese originals were ever in 9mm.

For what it's worth, mine has what I believe is a Prussian military acceptance stamp on the right flat of the chamber, like this:

imageEFV.JPG


There are no Chinese marks anywhere on the gun that I can find. Everything else seems standard for a wartime (WWI) commercial pistol.
 
The imports were not for the most part made in China; they were sold to/in China, mostly in the 1920's. They have normal German commercial markings and were in 7.63mm, not in either 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Mauser.

The guns were mostly junk, and many had to be stripped for parts and scrapped. Barrels, treated to a century of corrosive ammo and neglect were useless, plus the original 7.63 was not a popular caliber. Fortunately, the Mauser barrels for 7.63 and 9mm have the same outside diameter, so it was easy to rebore and rerifle bad barrels. Where corrosion was so bad that the original barrels were useless, the barrel was cut off, the breech part drilled out, and new barrels installed, either threaded in or soldered. The new barrels were turned down so the front part of the original barrel could be fitted onto the new one, thus using the original front sight. The guns were then given a quick wire brush and tank blue job, and sold on the market.

All in all, the result was a decent and usable gun, and many collectors were able to own a Mauser C96 when they would otherwise not have been able to find one at a reasonable price. But some folks were not content with that; they made up fake "Red Nine" pistols and passed them as originals; they created rare and exotic Mausers that never existed; they sold those worked over junkers as originals, sometimes for thousands of dollars. So the best advice I can give to the buyer of a C96 is the same as I would give to the prospective buyer of any collectible: learn as much as you can about the item, be careful about the seller's wording in an ad, and be as sure possible that there is a return policy.

Jim
 
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- This is a 7.63 Mauser cartridge in the bore.

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Here's a Rem-UMC 124gr JSP 9mm.

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I have more detail shots now if they would be helpful.
 

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FWIW, the "Red Nine" military contract was for 150,000 pistols. They were numbered in their own series so the numbers will duplicate earlier commercial pistols in 7.63mm. Numbers obviously will not exceed 150,000. Pistols in 9mm Mauser Export fall in two ranges, one 84k-88k, and the other in 176k. Both are too low for that gun.

That pistol appears in too good shape to be one of the late Chinese imports I mentioned above, though it could be. It is also possible that someone at some point had a 7.63mm barrel converted to 9mm P. If it chambers 9mm P., and checks out otherwise, I see no reason it cannot be fired safely though firing remotely for the first shots might be a good idea.

Jim
 
Not all the rebore to 9mm jobs were GOOD rebore jobs.

I had this one, a Bolo, in 9mm. Made in the 20s as close as I could find out. Turned into a 9mm God alone knows when after that.

Always thought I wanted one in .45ACP, but after shooting one in 9mm, there is NO WAY I would shoot one in .45.

The small grip, the shape of the grip, and the open slot for the stock made this the most painful 9mm pistol I have ever shot. Not the hardest recoiling, but the most painful in my hand. If you go to shoot one of these, I STRONGLY recommend gloves!!!!!!
 
Would a bore that tight be safe for shooting 9mm? Evidently it's done a lot of shooting with its current barrel, based on the wear, so my guess is yes...but I'd rather not do something dumb with a gun.
 
I dropped it off at the smith today to check the chamber and bore - I figured discretion > valor. If it really is in between 7.63 and 9mm, I suppose my options are to bore it out to 9mm or to sleeve it down to .30 cal.
 
You won't be able to sleeve it; the dimensions just won't work. Plus 7.63 would be too powerful to use with a liner like those used with low powder black powder rounds. If you want to spend the bucks, you can have the barrel replaced as I described above; several smiths were doing that work, but I don't know if they are still taking work.

Jim
 
"You won't be able to sleeve it; the dimensions just won't work. Plus 7.63 would be too powerful to use with a liner like those used with low powder black powder rounds."

This is a very common procedure, often performed by a number of gunsmiths.
 
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