C&R Rifle designation: Yes or NO?

[Rome]

Dear Fellow TLF members:

I've got a C&R question for you. Without going directly to the ATF for an definitive answer, how should one approach the question if a particular weapon is, indeed, C&R qualified. Case in point: I recently purchased a MAS 49/56 which was converted by CAI to .308 NATO from the original 7.5mm French ammo. I purchased it using the standard firearm purchase procedure although I contented that it was C&R qualified. The dealer said no. The C&R book lists the MAS in both calibers as being C&R qualified (page 14 of the latest book). As I've been able to document, the French actually did manufacture both calibers themselves although the NATO versions were in very tiny numbers: about 150 pieces total. BATF doesn't mention the numbers, however, just the caliber. So, CAI brings in a bunch of 7.5 mm and converts them to NATO. Are these C&R rifles? I've talked to a number of dealers about this, half of whom say NO to C&R and half say YES. There are a lot of conversions and controversies like this out there as I'm confident you're all aware of. It is so much easier to purchase under C&R, especially out-of-state purchases. The question is, then, what attitude to you take with a dealer in a case like this? The VZ52 is another rifle which has had the same thing happen. Many of the VZ52s were "converted" from the 7.62 x 45 to 7.62 x 39 using an insert. Do these also qualify under C&R?

I'll be interested in reading your answers.

Rome

 

[Doc Hudson]

As much as we all dislike dealing with BATF, the only way to be sure you are on firm ground is to get a written answer from BATF. Call a local field office and ask the question and then nicely ask that the agent send you a written copy of the opinion/rule/ruling. Keep the written record in your files.

That way, if BATF changes the rule or the opinion is incorrect, you have written evidence to prove you were acting within BATF Guidelines as stated to you by a BATF Representative.

Doc Hudson

 

[CRUFFLER.COM]

C&R Designation: Probably Not.

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You said:

I've got a C&R question for you. Without going directly to the ATF for an definitive answer, how should one approach the question if a particular weapon is, indeed, C&R qualified.
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<ACF>: In order to be considered a Curio or Relic, a firearm must satisfy one of two requirements: It must be either demonstrably greater than 50 years in age, or it must be specifically enumerated on the published C&R list. In order to be considered for inclusion on the list (exclusve of the 50 year requirement) the firearm must either

a) be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or
Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or

b) derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

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You said:

Case in point: I recently purchased a MAS 49/56 which was converted by CAI to .308 NATO from the original 7.5mm French ammo.
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<ACF> To begin with, there is no such thing as .308 NATO. There is .308 Winchester, which is a commercial sporting cartridge, as well as 7.62mm NATO, which is a military cartridge. While the two are dimensionally similar, they are not ballistically equivalent. This may seem like a nit, but it bears weight on two fronts - one, the use of .308 Win in firearms chambered for the 7.62mm NATO may be unsafe, and two, it indicated a conversion done NOT by a military user.
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You said:

I purchased it using the standard firearm purchase procedure although I contented that it was C&R qualified. The dealer said no. The C&R book lists the MAS in both calibers as being C&R qualified (page 14 of the latest book). As I've been able to document, the French actually did manufacture both calibers themselves although the NATO versions were in very tiny numbers: about 150 pieces total. BATF doesn't mention the numbers, however, just the caliber. So, CAI brings in a bunch of 7.5 mm and converts them to NATO. Are these C&R rifles? I've talked to a number of dealers about this, half of whom say NO to C&R and half say YES. There are
a lot of conversions and controversies like this out there as I'm confident you're all aware of. It is so much easier to purchase under C&R, especially out-of-state purchases. The question is, then, what attitude to you take with a dealer in a case like this?
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<ACF>: The general rule for military firearms on the list is that they must be in the original military configuration in order to qualify as C&R's. For this reason, bare receivers of C&R rifles are not C&R qualified. Note that original military configuration does not mean "as it left the factory." Example - a K98k is made in 1941, caliber 7.92x57mm. Later on, it is used by the Norwegian military, who, in 1952, converts it to .30 M2 (.30-06). It retains its C&R status because it is still in "original military configuration."

The MAS 49/56 in question was NOT converted by the military, and thus is no longer in original military configuration. It is, in my opinion, no longer qualified as a C&R. There may be some discussion about "external configuration," but in my opinion that is little more than wishful thinking. The associative or novel features which got the less than 50 year old MAS 49/56 added to the list in the first place (see (b) above) are lacking in the Century product.

The original French trials guns in 7.62mm NATO were NOT chambered for .308 Winchester. More importantly, they left the factory in that caliber, and thus would retain their C&R classification - these are the only guns that the 7.62mm NATO MAS listing contemplates. They also reportedly "shot themselves to pieces" due to the pressure differences between 7.5x54mm and 7.62mm NATO. I'd be very circumspect about touching off a 7.62mm NATO cartridge in a MAS.
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You said:

The VZ52 is another rifle which has had the same thing happen. Many of the VZ52s were "converted" from the 7.62 x 45 to 7.62 x 39 using an insert. Do these also qualify under C&R?
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<ACF>: If converted at a Czech arsenal, sure. If done by a gun show wizard, no, at least not until you remove the insert.
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You said:

I'll be interested in reading your answers.

Rome
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<ACF>: Hope this helps!


Kindest regards,

Adam Firestone
Editor in Chief
CRUFFLER.COM
http://www.cruffler.com