Bush: US would defend Israel against Iran

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Rebar

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"I am concerned about a person that, one, tries to rewrite the history of the Holocaust, and two, has made it clear that his intentions are to destroy Israel," Bush said.

"Israel is a solid ally of the United States, we will rise to Israel's defense if need be. So this kind of menacing talk is disturbing. It's not only disturbing to the United States, it's disturbing for other countries in the world as well," he added.

Asked if he meant the United States would rise to Israel's defense militarily, Bush said: "You bet, we'll defend Israel."
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-02-01T190045Z_01_WAT004764_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAN-NUCLEAR-BUSH.xml&rpc=22

Outstanding. A president who stands up against the rabid anti-semitism of islam, and supports our best ally in the region.

I still find it amazing that people still talk about Iran's nuclear program as anything but for weapons. It's one of the biggest oil producers, and has to burn natural gas at the wellheads. If they really wanted electricity, they have an overabundence of natural gas and oil to power all the plants they can build.
 
If they really wanted electricity, they have an overabundence of natural gas and oil to power all the plants they can build.

Let's think about some of Iran's most notable and valuable exports, in no particular order:

1) Oil.
2) Natural gas.
3) Rugs.

Perhaps Iran just isn't afraid of nuclear power, and knows what the world that is willing to pay for.

As for protecting Isreal? Will we condemn them if they attack Iran?
 
Outstanding. A president who stands up against the rabid anti-semitism of islam, and supports our best ally in the region.

Even more outstanding: Another unresearched claim about the religion that is motivated by willful blindness. The only posssible way you could've missed out on Iran's treatment of Jews is if you didn't research the issue at all beyond a few "Breaking News!" spots on Iran's reactor dreams.

See link:http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html

There is a difference between anti-semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment. One is primarily European, and the other is the problem in Iran. From the article:

It comes as a surprise to many visitors to discover that Iran, a country so hostile to Israel and with a reputation for intolerance, is home to a small but vibrant Jewish community that is an officially recognized religious minority under Iran's 1979 Islamic Constitution. "[Ayatollah Ruhollah] Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism - he saw us as Iranians," says Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran.
 
Heavily industrialized places need oil, and are willing to pay as stocks deplete.

Where are our nuclear plants? Oh, we need oil..
 
Israel spied on us then asked for clemency for the spy.
They should be on their own once their usefulness ends.
Yes I know other allies have to. My position is the same.
 
Another unresearched claim about the religion that is motivated by willful blindness.
The words of the Hadith:
"The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
And they didn't want to know. "They had been in Iran a few years back, when Iran was not persecuting Jews systematically. At that time they were picking out one Jew here, one Jew there. It wasn't a pattern. And they did not care about the repressive laws in Iran, because Iranian Jews had always, naturally, and I don't blame them, had a ghetto mentality. Their thinking was, 'We are a minority, just stay quiet, we have to be treated as second-class citizens. So what if they don't employ us in the government sector or in the army or in high posts? We have our trading businesses, and we can become doctors or engineers.'"
http://www.jewishjournal.com/old/nikbakht.5.5.0.htm
Despite the official distinction between "Jews," "Zionists," and "Israel," the most common accusation the Jews encounter is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists. The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious free dom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with "imperialistic America" — both such activities are punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions im posed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html
Iran’s marketing of anti-Semitic literature: anti-Semitic books in English translation were exhibited at the Iranian stand at the Frankfurt Book Fair. The anti-Semitic literature marketed by Iran spreads messages of hatred against the Jewish people and grants legitimacy to violence and terrorism directed against Israel and Jewish communities worldwide.
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/eng_n/iran_as_e.htm
Some more:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP105305
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP101305

Lets examine the concept of Dhimmi. From your statement, you seem to think being a dhimmi is just swell. I beg to differ:
Under Muslim rule, dhimmis were allowed to observe the commandments of their religions, albeit with many restrictions attached. In exchange, they had to pay taxes for the benefit of the Muslim community and faced additional regulations, some of them intentionally humiliating.

Sura 9:29 demands that jizya be exacted from non-Muslims as a condition required for jihad to cease. Failure to pay the jizya could result in the pledge of protection to become void with the dhimmi facing a choice between conversion and death.

Testimony of dhimmis was not admissible in cases involving a Muslim; on the other hand, Muslims could testify against dhimmis.[11] This legal disability put dhimmis in a precarious position in which they could not defend themselves against false accusations by Muslims except by hiring Muslim witnesses and bribing Muslim religious judges. Apart from breeding corruption, prohibition on non-Muslim testimony deepened the rift between communities, as dhimmis sought to reduce the possibility of conflict by limiting contacts with Muslims

Islamic law treats dhimmis as cursed and despised people; humiliating dhimmis was an act of piety. The prohibition on forming friendship with them goes back to Sura 5:64:”O Believers, do not take as your friends the infidels or those who received the Scriptures before you”, i.e. Jews and Christians. Ibn Kathir wrote that dhimmis must feel “disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of the dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

"an officially recognized religious minority under Iran's 1979 Islamic Constitution.". Sure, recognized as Dhimmi. As offical second class citizens, without the human rights or legal protections of a muslim, unequal under the law, and liable to humiliation and imprisonment at any time just for being jewish.

And I won't even go into what their insane president is saying about jews, denying the holocaust and demanding that Israel be exterminated.
 
This is news????????

Is Israel really an allie or mearly a parasite?

It seems to me that almost every person caught steeling our military and other "secrets" (spying) and selling them to the highest bidder, had Israelie ties. Have they not sold weapons to our enemys while we were at war? Did they not refuse to let us use their bases during the gulf war? Did they not deliberately make 17 gunnery runs on one of our ships(the Liberty), killing scores of american sailors and woulding even more? Have they not horbored criminals from american justice. .

It is my understanding that American aid to Israel is in excess of $40,000 per man woman and child in that country. While we have people homeless and hungry in this country. Is this not rediculous?

Friends like this and you need no enemies
 
Rebar,

1. Iran. Here's a quote from the Iranian constitution:

ARTICLE 13 - Iranian Zoroastrians, Jews and Christians shall be the only recognized religious minorities who, within the limits of law, shall be free to carry out their religious rites and practice their religion in personal status and religious education.

ARTICLE 14 - According to the stipulation of the Koranic verse [God forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you for religion's sake, and who have not driven you forth from your homes, that ye should act righteously and justly towards them; verily, God loves the just!](38) The Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Muslims are required to treat the non-Muslims with good manners and Islamic justice and observe their human rights. This article applies to those who do not plot or act against Islam and the Islamic Republic of Iran.
http://www.iranologyfo.com/low-e01.htm

That coupled with quotes from actual Iranian Jews ought to be enough to counterbalance some outsider's view of what is going on there. The point that this is really motivated by hatred of Jews is absurd on its face; Jews are a minority in Iran. If the Islamic hardliners wanted to persecute them, they could have, but instead, they wrote freedom for Jews into their constitution. You can quote from jewishjournal.com all you want, or try to spin that, but no amount of quoting is going to explain how writing Jews into the constitution serves a purpose of hating Jews.


2. Your version of Fiqh.

Last I checked, wikipedia isn't an authority to which muslims turn for guidance in interpreting the Koran. Just like with the bible, you can grab quotes here and there and make all the arguments you want, but it doesn't mean that any Muslim anywhere actually accepts your interpretation. You will note that the wiki page you cited is locked pending disputes, in addition to the fact that it does not contain the text you quoted. Citing the text you did quote is tantamount to citing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to make statements about what Jews believe. In any case, I don't think you're really interested in figuring out what Muslims actually believe, which leads to...

3. What this thread is really about:

This thread is about Rebar "exposing the secrets." All the public information to which muslims would turn directly contradicts your claims, but you persist with your theories under the assumption that these are merely propaganda ploys.

You are attacking a religion by claiming that it has a secret conspiracy to destroy us, and that it uses apparently secret religious directives to spread its message. Where have we heard that story before? Don't you find it a bit disturbing that your "they are lying and have a secret conspiracy to dominate the world" rhetoric looks exactly like what European and American radicals have said about the Jews for 2000 years?

There are some American traditions that should be left to the dustbin, and religious hatred is one of them. Quit trying to ruin my country, Rebar.
 
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It comes as a surprise to many visitors to discover that Iran, a country so hostile to Israel and with a reputation for intolerance, is home to a small but vibrant Jewish community that is an officially recognized religious minority under Iran's 1979 Islamic Constitution.
That's been the standard in Islamic countries: religious minorities are tolerated so long as they remain minor and recognize their status.

Israel itself is an example of a religious minority that became a majority and refused to kowtow.
 
1. Iran. Here's a quote from the Iranian constitution:
The fact is, non muslims are Dhimmi in Iran. Would you agree to muslims in America being treated like jews in Iran? I doubt it.

2. Your version of Fiqh.
Absurd. The islamic principle of dhimmi is well documented, if not as well known in the West as it should be.
in addition to the fact that it does not contain the text you quoted
I quoted from the hadith, here it is in full:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
From the Sahih Muslim hadith, Book 041, Number 6985:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/041.smt.html#041.6985
What this thread is really about
This thread is praising President Bush for standing up for our Israeli allies, and against the insane anti-semitic rantings and very real nuclear threat from Iran.
You are attacking a religion by claiming that has a secret conspiracy to destroy us, and that uses apparently secret religious directives to spread its message.
It's no secret, it's the declaired objective, since the beginning, to conquer the world and force everyone into islam.

That islam isn't just a religion is the wool you'd like to pull over our eyes. Islam is also a political system (facism), it's also the law (Shiara), in islam there is no seperation of spiritual and secular, it's a full blown world view that desires to rule all aspects of life. That's the point that most Westerners fail to grasp. Imagine the worst aspects of Soviet communism, Nazism, and the inquistion, and that comes close to what islam is. Not as a religion, but as a totalitarian ideology, ordained by allah, with the cult of personality of Mohammad, to conquer and rule the world.

I hate totalitarianism, therefore I must hate islam. Not because they worship a trumped up moon god, because I don't care who or what someone wants to deify. I hate islam because it wants to destroy Western civilization, Eastern non-islamic civilization, the judeo-christian ethic, and enslave the whole world in the darkness of Mohammad's insane facist soul.
 
Is Israel really an allie or mearly a parasite?

It seems to me that almost every person caught steeling our military and other "secrets" (spying) and selling them to the highest bidder, had Israelie ties. Have they not sold weapons to our enemys while we were at war? Did they not refuse to let us use their bases during the gulf war? Did they not deliberately make 17 gunnery runs on one of our ships(the Liberty), killing scores of american sailors and woulding even more? Have they not horbored criminals from american justice. .

It is my understanding that American aid to Israel is in excess of $40,000 per man woman and child in that country. While we have people homeless and hungry in this country. Is this not rediculous?

Friends like this and you need no enemies

+1. Israel is an albatross around our necks, that needs to be cut loose and stand on its own two feet, for better or worse. They had no problems defending themselves before; nor will they next time around without us. Just run-of-the-mill pandering to American Jewish political campaign contributors. Good reason #487 to dislike Shrub.
 
shootinstudent is right.

Too many people don't understand the difference between Iran's deep love for Jews and the President of Iran's determination to wipe Israel off of the map.

Also, many people don't understand how Iran's deep love for Jews is reflected in the President of Iran's suggestion that all Jews should move out of the Middle East and back to Europe.

Shucks, the President of Iran is even sponsoring a conference to examine the Holocaust - who else in the Middle East or Muslim world has done that?
 
The fact is, non muslims are Dhimmi in Iran. Would you agree to muslims in America being treated like jews in Iran? I doubt it.

I wouldn't agree to Muslims in America being treated like Muslims in Iran either. The problem is the whole government and how it treats every person, not discrimination amongst the two religions, and this is just tapdancing around the sources that prove that. Hatred of Jews as a race started out in Europe, reached its pinnacle in Europe, and is primarily European and American today. To say that Iranians hate all Jews when religious rights for Jews are specifically written into the constitution is absurd.

I quoted from the hadith, here it is in full:

You quoted from a description of the endtimes, which, like Christian apocalyptic writings, describes violence. Anyone who knows the history of christian theology regarding the end is no stranger to this, and so if you think it is a condemnation of Islam, you'd better be ready to ban bibles too.
Islam is also a political system (facism), it's also the law (Shiara), in islam there is no seperation of spiritual and secular, it's a full blown world view that desires to rule all aspects of life.

That is your claim, and it's false. The only people in the Muslim world who agree with this are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other Muslim Brotherhood inspired groups representing a few thousand people out of a billion. The pre 20th century works on Islamic jurisprudence contain absolutely no such declaration. "Islam is government" appears nowhere in the Koran, Hadiths, or Fatwas of the four schools. For a detalied academic account of that, see this article: http://www.meforum.org/article/14

Here's a source for you to look up fatwas from one of the orthodox (ie, one of the accepted Sunni schools dating from the first generations of Muslims) madhabs. The Shafi'i school, which runs this website, is one of the more strictly textual versions of Islam, so you should be happy to know that it relies almost entirely on verses from the Quran and hadiths. I have started you out with a fatwa on terrorism, which I hope you'll read. You should note the difference between what actual Muslim religious sites say (like the one below), versus what your pseudo-intellectual hate sites say about the religion:
http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

. I hate islam because it wants to destroy Western civilization, Eastern non-islamic civilization, the judeo-christian ethic, and enslave the whole world in the darkness of Mohammad's insane facist soul.

You hate Islam because you are ignorant, and because you are willfuly blind to any remotely credible information on the subject. You look only at sources that confirm your bias, and say of anything else "that's just deception!"

Rebar, you are exactly the kind of person, using exactly the kind of methods, who visited discrimination and violence against Jews for thousands of years. You are destroying our civillization with your hatred, and it's people like you we need to worry about, not some Arab who doesn't speak english half-way across the world.
 
The only people in the Muslim world who agree with this are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other Muslim Brotherhood inspired groups representing a few thousand people out of a billion.
shootinstudent, you constantly point to a tiny minority of people, whom you claim don't really represent Islam, as the culprits.

If the "few thousand" are so far out of synch with Islam, why don't the "billion" rise up to defend Islam by totally denouncing the bad apples? Where is the righteous indignation of the "billion" over their religion being besmirched by the actions of the "few thousand?" Why can't, or won't, the "billion" control the "few thousand?"
 
If the "few thousand" are so far out of synch with Islam, why don't the "billion" rise up to defend Islam by totally denouncing the bad apples? Where is the righteous indignation of the "billion" over their religion being besmirched by the actions of the "few thousand?" Why can't, or won't, the "billion" control the "few thousand?"
__________

For many reasons, one being that they are not a unified whole...the other being that the radicals organize themselves and are financially supported, while the orthodox do not have any such structure (see link above on meforum for that).

Then there's also the fact that it's hard to find people who don't want to be found...if we can't find terrorists hiding on our own soil, what makes you think it would be easy for a third world police force to find the very same sort of terrorist on its own soil?

This hate mongering is much more dangerous to America than anything the terrorists can do. Once we accept the idea that, based on the actions of individuals, all people who share the identifying monikers of those individuals are guilty and deserve punishment, we are lost. "Collective" punishment based on supposed religious similarity with criminals is fundamentally wrong, and that kind of thing has produced some of the worst moments in human history.

Enough already.
 
Hatred of Jews as a race started out in Europe, reached its pinnacle in Europe, and is primarily European and American today.
What nonsense. First there was the Meccan period, where mohammad tried to convince jews and christians to become muslims, and where all the "peaceful" suras of the koran were written. But since they didn't buy what he was selling, he went to Medina and became angry and bitter. That is when he preached hate towards christians and especially jews. This passage of the koran abrogate what was written before:
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
This is the last sura of the koran, and thus abrogates every other sura that contradicts it.
When the Qurayza jews of Medina refused to convert, he cut off the heads of 900 men and took their property, woman, and children as slaves. This was not self defense, it was hatred and greed. Since that time, the jew has been the scapegoat of islam.
You quoted from a description of the endtimes, which, like Christian apocalyptic writings, describes violence.
The big difference is, christians see the end times as a metaphor, while muslims take these words as the literal truth. And they quote that particular passage with frequency.
"Islam is government" appears nowhere in the Koran, Hadiths, or Fatwas of the four schools.
Islam claims Shiara as the ultimate law, for all the earth, and no law of man may contradict it.
You hate Islam because you are ignorant, and because you are willfuly blind to any remotely credible information on the subject.
You don't like what I say, which is fine. But stating that I'm ignorant of the subject just because I know the truth, that's dissimulation.

Note that I'm not attacking islam as a religion, but as a totalitarian ideology that preaches hatred towards non-muslims and that wishes to subject the world to it's facist law. Nor am I attacking individual muslims, most of whom had no choices growing up to hear anything contradictory to the offical creed. The Arab and other peoples in islamic lands have been ill-served by this ideology, and I feel sorry for them. Note that the offical punishment for converting away from islam is death.

I also find your lame attempts to paint me as the same as an anti-semite quite amusing. The West is, at this moment, fighting a war against these beliefs that you state are imaginary. Every day muslims are killing themselves, Americans, and other muslims based on the very principles you state don't exist. Well, you'll forgive me if I take their word over yours. If you represent any muslims, that group is the real tiny minority, the vast majority believe in "true islam", the jihad, and shiara.
 
Threads that focus on religion will be closed.

Threads that focus on political alliances and interactions between nations will remain.

This one is closed.
 
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