Burnt Cases

M

MadDawg

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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I picked up some Rainier 125gr plated bullets; the FAQ on Rainier's site says to use loads for jacketed 125 grain bullets. I have HS-6 available, which is listed with a starting load of 9.8 to 10.9 grains max for HS-6. I loaded them up with 10.0 grains of HS-6. I have RCBS dies, and put a slight crimp, per Rainier's directions, on the bullets. When I fired the ammo today, it fired well, kind of dirty. Upon closer inspection of the cases, towards the mouth of the case is signs of extreme heat, as if I had put that part of the case under high heat. It's only in one spot, as if the powder was concentrated there. I had 1/2 loaded with standard Winchester primers, the other half with Winchester magnum primers. All cases show the same signs; heat at the mouth of the case, in one spot.. The primers appear to be fine. HS-6 appears to be quite dirty. HS-6 was sold to me by a local dealer who says it's a good powder for .357 for both heavier and lighter loads, for plated, jacketed, and lead bullets.. Load data came from Hodgdon's reloading site for .357 magnum.

Questions: Is it safe to re-use the cases ? Is there anything else I can do to mitigate this hot spot ?
 

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You're actually underloaded - in a sense.

I have extensive experience with HS-6 with 125gn jacketed bullets for 357 Magnum. Here's what you're running into:

Not enough primer.
Not enough powder.
Not enough crimp.

HS-6 in 357 Magnum should be used with a CCI 550 magnum primer (like the 200 rounds I finished loading about an hour ago - 158 LSWC's, in my case).

In order for HS-6 to run clean - especially with a light 125gn bullet - it needs to be loaded up really good. We're talking in the 11.0gn neighborhood for a 125 grainer. And even then, the round is squirrely at best. My chronograph shows very high Standard Deviations at powder levels all around the aforementioned 11.0gns. It's just not a good combination.

Because HS-6 doesn't like to ignite, a heavy roll crimp is also required. Problem is, a heavy roll crimp would not be a good thing with a plated bullet.

My advice: Use your HS-6 for 158 jacketed bullets. It actually performs quite well in this application. Use your 125 plated bullets with a more easily ignited propellant - like Power Pistol. Or better yet, use them in 38 Specials with something like W231 or Bullseye - which is much closer to where it was designed to be used. There are about 1000 125gn plated bullets on the shelf right next to me. I have no plan whatsoever to use them for 357 Magnum. IMO, 357 Mag is too hot for such a light plated bullet.
 
Thanks Nick. I did suspect that it might be partially related to the crimp; but don't know of anyone locally that is wise to HS-6's behavior.

I do have some 158's sitting around, so I guess that'll be my next batch. I'll look for some other powder for the 125's ( and maybe buy some .38 cases.)
 
That's great advise Nick. While the pictures weren't great, I too suspected under pressure based on the powder and explanation.

My only addition is that while plated bullets can take jacketed loads, poder selection is key. IMO, they like cast bullet powders like AA #5, Universal, 231, Titegroup, Longshot, etc. I use AA #5 for plated and it works great!
 
HS-6 is not as energetic and runs cooler compared to most of its burn rate contemporaries (Unique, Power Pistol, AA5).

The powder burn marks in the OP's pic are caused by "blow back." It's a low pressure condition where the case is not expanding against the cylinder charge hole wall. The case(s) probably did expand at some point during the combustion process, but certainly not at first. It's a bit speculative, and I hesitate to get too deep into the dynamics of it all, but basically, between the characteristics of the powder itself, the non-magnum primer, and the lack of a heavy crimp, the burn is slow to get going. The bullet is unseating long before the powder has gotten to roaring real good. It's a messy round.

HS-6 doesn't like the cavernous internal space of your typical revolver cartridges (38/357, 44Spl/Mag, 45 Colt). I have gotten it to burn well in 357 Mag, with heavy bullets (re 158's), and loaded up really good. But that's pretty much it.

Semi-auto cartridges is the best home for HS-6. It likes the tight quarters of 9mm and 40 S&W especially; but even then, it still prefers heavy bullets.
 
I've had good luck with HS-6 in .45 Colt. I use it for my woods load. Note this is a Tier 2 load though (over 14K but under 20K psi) . It does like 'pressure' to start working and a heavy bullet..

Ruger BH .45 Colt 5 1/2"
13.0g HS-6, 255g SWC, CCI-300, 1116fps, 96 ES, 29 shots
13.0g HS-6, 255g SWC, CCI-350, 1139fps, 52 ES, 30 shots

As you can tell it does like the magnum primer here. Marked as accurate.

Looking at my load table, I only tested 'one' load in .357 with HS-6.... Must not have liked it. Did not mark as accurate (7.0g HS-6 under 158g SWC, CCI-500, 980 fps, 67 ES). Going to have to 'revisit' that it looks like!

Did test HS-6 in .44Spec and found a load I liked there too (9.5g HS-6 under 240g SWC, CCI 300, 961fps, 35 ES). Tested from 7g to 10g. Again it starts to come 'alive' at the higher pressures...

Oh yeah, your cases are perfectly okay to reload, you just have some blow back as stated above. No biggie, just discolored :) .
 
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My limited experience with HS-6 leads me to echo that it works best with a good crimp and at near highest levels of powder....and even then I didn't get great accuracy nor were the numbers good (high SD with erratic velocity) compared to 110 or other "magnum" powders. They shot fine with good accuracy for self defense type loads but not great accuracy for the 75 yard tests (I like shooting my revolvers for fun at long distances and for hunting). I tried various primers and brands with no noticeable differences.
 
I've had good luck with HS-6 in .45 Colt. I use it for my woods load. Note this is a Tier 2 load though (over 14K but under 20K psi) . It does like 'pressure' to start working and a heavy bullet..
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Yeah, you've got that load pumped up pretty good, with a heavy bullet. I can see it running fairly clean. It's all about getting the pressures up.

Looking at my load table, I only tested 'one' load in .357 with HS-6.... Must not have liked it. Did not mark as accurate (7.0g HS-6 under 158g SWC, CCI-500, 980 fps, 67 ES). Going to have to 'revisit' that it looks like!
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My 357 Mag LSWC load is 8.2gn HS-6, CCI 550 (the rounds I mentioned loading in my first post). With powder amounts below this, I got inconsistent ignitions and soot. With powder amounts above this, leading became more of an issue than I like (please, let's not turn this into a leading post). 8.2gn seems to strike that balance. 1081 f/s through a 686 3" bbl (SD = 15.55 - consistent, accurate). It's a great economy round that still pops hard enough for recoil practice. I load/shoot a lot of these. Because HS-6 runs cool, it is a great powder for lead slugs - as long as you can keep them pumped up enough to run clean, of course.

My HS-6 158 JHP loading is 9.0gn (Speer #14 peaks at 9.7gn). This load is a bit off max, but this is where my load work up really settled down with a very impressive 7.93 SD. 1115 f/s through the 3". Again, I load/shoot a lot of these, and they run very clean.

Did test HS-6 in .44Spec and found a load I liked there too (9.5g HS-6 under 240g SWC, CCI 300, 961fps, 35 ES). Tested from 7g to 10g. Again it starts to come 'alive' at the higher pressures...
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Looks like we're in the opposite situation with 44 Spl. It was I who got poor results, but never continued the work up. I stopped at 8.0gn HS-6 (240 LSWC, CCI 350); obviously, I needed to move up quite a bit, based on your data. Heh, I can't quote my chronograph notes here, or I would receive an infraction :p Let's just say I was very displeased with the filth.

Oh yeah, your cases are perfectly okay to reload, you just have some blow back as stated above. No biggie, just discolored.
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Yes, I meant to state that too, and forgot. Thank you.

Good post rclark.
 
Thanks for the help guys; hopefully it will help someone else out in the future as well.

I was sold hs-6 by the guy at the LGS- as a good powder for, well, including these plated bullets.. so much for that...

Thanks again.
 
Well I agree you were mislead regarding HS-6 with your 125 plated bullets.

And make no mistake, HS-6 is a low-energy, hard-to-ignite, persnickity powder that lacks versatility.

But I like it. I like it quite a bit.

In its wheelhouse, it's great stuff. When used right, it's very predictable, very consistent, and very clean (yes, very clean). It's not energetic (like Power Pistol, for instance) so it's not known for propelling bullets particularly fast. But what it lacks in sheer velocity performance, it more than makes up in user friendliness.

It's a great powder for the novice loader because it talks to you. When it's underloaded, it tells you by running dirty. When it gets into its sweet spot, it cleans up and velocities become real consistent. When you go past that point and start over loading, velocities become inconsistent. And its modest pressure curve (due to its low-energy characteristic) gives you a forgiveness window - with plenty of time for common sense to kick in. It is only the most wreckless loaders who get bitten by HS-6.
 
My 357 Mag { 158g } LSWC load is 8.2gn HS-6, CCI 550... 1081fps
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Have to give that a try. Out of a 6 1/2" barrel should be easily over 1100fps. I do have a bottle of HS-6 for my .45 Colt loads, so should be able to run a few chrono tests and fill out my .357 load table for this powder! Thanks.
 
Yup, soot from low pressure not sealing the brass to the chamber. Magnum primers with HS-6 and a moderate crimp with plated.
Make sure you expand and flair to a bare minimum, that will maximize bullet tension in the case mouth, helping with ignition.
 
I too load HS6 in 45colt and love it.

I'm loading 12 grs under a 267gr WFN cast bullet ignited by a Remington 2-1/2 pistol primer.

Accuracy in my Uberti Bisley with 5-1/2 inch barrel is excellent and I'm getting a velocity of 952 fps.

I have not had a chance to check that load in my Blackhawk with 5-1/2 inch barrel but it would not surprise me to get slightly higher velocity readings from it.

I do believe that heavier bullets with a heavier crimp will make HS6 burn much cleaner.

Most likely preaching to the choir here but a word of caution and this goes for any powder, when using a different lot number, always check what your powder measure is throwing.

I received a new shipment of HS6 the other day, the new lot number was throwing 13 grs instead of the 12 grs from my powder measure setting, I had to reset my powder measure to throw 12 grs.

I've never tried HS6 in 357 or 44 magnum, I always had great results from 2400 with those two calibers and never used magnum primers with 2400.
 
Have to give that (158 LSWC, 8.2gn HS-6, CCI 550) a try. Out of a 6 1/2" barrel should be easily over 1100fps.
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1081 f/s through my 3" 686; but it's 1145 f/s through my 4" 686. Granted the law of diminishing returns starts kicking in here, but I'd expect somewhere in the high 1100 f/s range through a 6.5."

I do believe that heavier bullets with a heavier crimp will make HS6 burn much cleaner.
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Absolutely. Especially in the revolver world. In semi-autos, HS-6 behaves more conventionally (no need for magnum primers, for instance). It really shows it quirks in the large revolver cases.

I've never tried HS6 in 357 or 44 magnum, I always had great results from 2400 with those two calibers and never used magnum primers with 2400.
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HS-6 can work well in 357/44Mag, but you gotta load it up really good, with heavy bullets and magnum primers. I've never used 2400 but it has an outstanding reputation for the application you mentioned. And it definitely ignites more easily than HS-6. It's my understanding that using standard primers with 2400 is common place. With HS-6 in revolvers, I recommend a magnum primer.
 
I had about 1/2 ( 50 or so ) of the ammo not shot the other day; I re-crimped them a bit more; took them to the range today; oh, yeah, it barked a bit more; you could definitely feel it had more punch. Some cases showed no signs of high heat; some did. Might be a variance in the case lengths...

While it may not be ideal, I'm not throwing out the HS-6 yet. Got a bunch of 158's to load up as well, but I do need to procure some more brass first.. Some more .357's and some .38's ... I also have some lead bullets to shoot as well.. Besides, it was an 8 pound jug of HS-6..

I picked up a pound of TiteGroup yesterday; figured it's worth a shot.
 
My 357 Mag LSWC load is 8.2gn HS-6, CCI 550 (the rounds I mentioned loading in my first post). 1081 f/s through a 686 3" bbl (SD = 15.55 - consistent, accurate). It's a great economy round that still pops hard enough for recoil practice.

My HS-6 158 JHP loading is 9.0gn; has a very impressive 7.93 SD. 1115 f/s through the 3."
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Went to the range today and shot both these through my 3" bbl 686. 140 of the LSWC's and 35 of the JHP's.

As usual, these rounds made for a great day shooting. I carry this gun in cooler weather, so I like to keep in practice with it - and not with little 38 target plinkers. The gun came home very dirty; but hey, that's 175 rounds. Anyway, it had a lot of powder residue - not sooty grainy stuff. Got it all cleaned up and looking good again afterward.
 
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