Bullets Key Hole at 50 Feet

T

The Bolt Man

New member
I have a model 36 Smith & Wesson with a 1.85" barrel.

I tried some lighter loads to get an idea of what this little revolver may like for a general practice round. I used 148 gr. HBWC, and 148 gr. double ended WC bullets. I tried Bullseye @ 2.4 to 2.7 grains, Titegroup @ 2.5 and 3.3 grains and AA2 powder @ 2.7 grains.

The problem I was seeing in the (10) shot groups is some of the rounds appear to be tipped or keyholed slightly. Often (3) to (5) of the (10) rounds fired.

I did fire one (10) round grou using Federal 148 gr. HBWC factory ammo and one of the ten rounds appears to be tipped.

I am hoping someone can suggest why I am seeing these tipped bullet holes in these (50) foot targets. I am guessing it may be too low of a velocity but haven't had time to test heavier owder charges yet.

Has anyone else had this roblem?
 
Since only some of the loads are keyholing, it could be inconsistent bullet diameters.
Maybe some of them are crimped more than others.
If the keyholing is being caused by variances in velocity, maybe the hardness of the bullets is a bit too much for the velocities of your loads.
They may not be gripping the rifling well.
Bullets used in lower velocity loads generally need to be softer.
As you say, loading some faster loads might cure it, if that's the cause.
 
Are your targets on a corrugated cardboard backer? A tear can look like a keyhole.

Do you see tipping with oval holes or key holing with full bullet profiles?
Are you hitting the target?

Gil Hebard reported 40% of the shots fired with the M52 target pistols showed some degree of tipping, "skidding," or yawing. But 50 yard groups were under 3".
 
I always start my tests with a clean bore and check often for leading. Leading is not the issue. At this point accuracy isn't the issue. The issue is bullets that are tipping when going through the target.

The bullets used are very consistent in diameter. The bullet diameters in slug testing the bore all are slightly larger than the groove diameter. I don't think the crimping is the problem. The crimps are quite uniform. Inconsistent velocity may be a factor. Several tests I have conducted indicate these light powder charges do in fact have a powder position problem. There is always a significant difference in point of impact at (50) feet with powder to the rear compared to powder to the front. Therefore firing without having the powder in the same position every time, changes in point of impact caused by the resulting changes in velocity. This will cause larger groups and could cause some of the shots fired to tip when hitting the target.

The target backer is cardboard. I change it often to insure clean cut bullet holes. The bullet holes that appear to be tipped are not oval, just slightly larger on one side with a lead smear.

I simply don't like the idea that some of these test loads appear to be somewhat unstable and would like to find the cause so I can eliminate it. I know I have to try higher velocity loads, different bullets and powders. There should be a point for every bullet where the bullet RPM is right for the bullet to be stable in flight. Maybe I haven't found it yet for this little Model 36.

Any additional testing will be delayed due to bad weather. We are having January weather in November here in Minnesota. That means it is cold and snowy. Daytime highs barely make the low 20's. I will make notes of all your suggestions and hope for better weather.
 
It would be interesting to test these rounds through another gun with a longer barrel.

Other than that, and what has already been mentioned, I got nothin'.

Your Bullseye and AA2 recipes are a touch light, but are close to my accuracy rounds (can't speak for Titegroup - I have no experience with it) - so I don't see an issue there.
 
Your description of the bullet holes are just what Gil Hebard described in 1963.

If you don't like it, you will probably have to load something besides wadcutters.
 
Bolt Man;

You asked " has anyone else had this problem ".

To answer your question, in my honest opinion, it is not a problem.
It is inherit to the 148gr HBWC's

I shoot an old S&W M52-1 for Bullseye centerfire.
2.8 gr of Bullseye powder, very accurate at 50 and 25 yards.
Has always produced the occasional tipped hole at 50 and 25 yards.
An X is an X whether tipped or not and sometimes they tip in your favor :)

As long as it is an accurate load I would not sweat it.

Clarence
 
Update

rem1858 and Jim Watson,

Your comments are well taken. If any of these loads proves to be accurate, I could live with it. I am thinking I will fire each of these loads at fifty yards the next time I get out. If the bullets are really unstable or starting to tumble at fifty feet, they should be really bad at fifty yards.

By habit, I save all of the targets I fire during load testing, in folders for each firearm. Too many different firearms and countless load combinations to remember. That said, I looked at the targets for my Model 14 S&W 6" target revolver. I had fired most of the same loads in the model 14 as I had in the model 36.

None of the loads fired in the model 14 had tipped bullet holes in the targets. I am back to thinking the short barrel model 36 has just enough velocity loss that some rounds will go through the target with a slight tilt. MAYBE, I can't be 100% positive until I get a chance to increase the powder charges and see if the problem goes away.

I wonder just how much less velocity the model 36 has, compared to the model 14 six inch barrel. Would the velocity loss be enough to be a problem. Bullets other than wad cutters will be on my list of things to try when I have more favorable weather conditions.
 
I have no problems with any different bullet wts. or designs I'm shooting in my Model 36 (or other Smiths/Rugers/Colts) BUT the one design I'm not shooting is a HBWC. All my WC designs are solid plain base and I shoot them "as cast" which measures out at .358 or a tad larger.

Just curious . . . are you casting your own and if so, what are you sizing them to? I cast from "range lead" (pretty low tech) and lube by tumble lubing in Alox/Paste Wax. I've never had an issue with leading nor key holing. Normally key holing is more of an issue from undersize bullets. If you are size yours, try loading them "as cast" and see fi you get the same results. That may not be the problem but it gives you something to try and see if the results are the same.

I cast from various Lee molds and Lyman molds - TC, WC, SWC and RN - various weights from 95gr, 121 gr, 148gr, 150 gr and 158gr. I normly use BE or RD for powders. All seem to punch round holes regardless the barrel length and I have the snub length, 3", 4" 5" and 6" in Smiths, 5 1/2" Ruger NV and 4 3/4" in Uberti.

It may just be the HB design out of your 36 or it may be bore size and bullet diameter relationship?

Let is know what you find out as I'd be interested - we all can learn from it. Thanks! :)
 
At fairly short ranges, bullets sometimes have not had a chance to stabilize. I suggest settling on one load and one bullet (say double end WC and 2.7 grains of Bullseye, a known good load). Then shoot at 25 yards and see what happens.

Jim
 
Wad cutters don't stabilize very quickly as James pointed and noted above the WD will often look like a key hole because they tend to tear the paper when they pass through where as a rounded bullet punches through the paper.
Pick an accurate load and move back a little further and see how it shoots.
 
The 148-grain hollow-base wad cutters are longer, and S&W uses a 18 3/4" twist rate. That along with the short barrel of the Model 36 doesn't allow them to stabilize as well. Do the double-ended 148-grain wad cutters tilt as bad? They shouldn't because they're shorter in length.

I suppose that is why Colt used a faster twist in .38 Special barrels.
 
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I have tested with Hornady 148 grain HBWC, 148 grain DEWC (Denny bullet)and my H&G cast from mold number 50 at 148 grains. All these bullets are sized .358" and the Hornady HBWC are .358 to .359" diameter.

I even tried a 111 grain H&G cast WC and it too had a tendency to tip some rounds.

I except the idea that the HBWC my tend to tip more often and wad cutters in general may not stabilize the best in the Model 36 or some other handguns.

I did some checking last night and found several sources of data results as to velocity loss in shorter barrels. Most of these test results indicate the 1.85" barrel when compared to a 6" barrel will have from 100fps to 200fps less velocity. Considering my light starter loads are barely above slingshot velocity, the Model 36 could have a problem with many bullets.

I need to increase my powder charges so they are closer to suggested maximum to rule in or out the problem is due to low velocity. I also have to try some other bullets. I have a Lyman 150 grain RN and a couple of Lyman 153 & 155 grain RN bullets I can try as well as 115 and 121 grain SWC & Conical point Lyman bullets. In addition to the above I have some Berry DEWC and some Rainier 125 gr and 158 gr. HP bullets to try.

Needless to say I have plenty of things to try and a long Minnesota winter to get in the way. I can deal with the cold if temps are around 30 degrees because I can heat my shooting bench which is enclosed for winter shooting but the wind cannot be out of the north and some winters shut me down because the snow drifts get so deep I can't get through with my tractor chains and all. Well these are some of my problems and long list of thing I want to do.

I will stay in touch. If too much time passes before I have anything to report, I will do it here or start a new thread. Thanks for all your help and suggestions.
 
FWIW, I shot a lot of wadcutters out of a Model 36, 3" barrel and never had any keyhole. I have fired some out of a 642 and never noticed any keyholing, but note the word "noticed".

Jim
 
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