Bullet weight versus recoil

Dusty Rivers

New member
If you use the same gun, and the same bullet type, will the recoil be less with say 165 gr versus a 200 gr shell. I am talking about commercial ammo from the same manufacturer. I guess that assumes they are using the same type of power. Do they?:confused:
 
ammo ordering data

Thanks, If I had any pride I'd feel embarrased:o

So I go to a web site to order ammo. It has product description as-
40 S&W 155GR TMJ LAWMAN 50/BOX--no where does it mention velocity.
So how do I compair to get lower recoil rounds?
 
But the other general rule is: "the heavier the gun, the lower the perceived recoil"

Which is slightly irrelevant, since he did say "the same gun". Sorry ;)
 
You are confused on a very basic level.

When you see "230g" and "185g" on boxes of ammo, it doesn;t mean that the 230g has more powder in the case; in fact it's usually just the opposite.

A grain is a unit of weight, like an ounce. A 230g bullet is bigger and heavier than a 185g bullet. We are talking about the actual lead or jacketed projectile.

As far as perceived recoil goes, generally a heavier bullet (230g) will prodice more felt recoil than a lighter bullet (185g.) As someone else said, a heavier handgun will reduce the felt recoil of a given round as the weight of the gun absorbs some of the "kick."
 
Actual recoil from a pistol, rifle, or shotgun is a combination of:
- Bullet/shot weight : more will increase recoil,
- Velocity: higher will increase recoil,
- Gun weight : more will decrease recoil.
You must consider all three together to determine net increase or decrease in recoil. Felt recoil is how you sense/perceive recoil and can vary between individuals. Felt recoil is also dependent on stock fit, stock type, your mental state (deer hunters never seem to feel recoil when shooting at game), and many other variables.
 
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a bunch of simple questions about box labels

I am trying to understand how to evaluate which ammo to order from information provided on the box. It is not about felt recoil or perceived recoil or heavy versus light gun, or auto versus revolver.

I now understand that grains refers to projectile weight. Thanks for that info.

I now understand that weight times velocity is a recoil indicator-given all other factors remain the same.

More questions-
Why not put velocity numbers on the box of ammo, say from a specific barrel length?
Why not state type of powder and amount of powder?
Does the type of projectile affect recoil? FMJ, JHP, etc. ( yes I know etc. is not a bullet type:D)
+P is achieved by using more powder, or different powder
what about low flash power versus non low flash? Shouldn't that be on the box as well. will that affect recoil and velocity?

Help us simple consumers out.

Why not put energy info on the box?

shotgun shells don't refer to grains. They use shot size numbers.
 
Quote: "I am trying to understand how to evaluate which ammo to order from information provided on the box. It is not about felt recoil or perceived recoil or heavy versus light gun, or auto versus revolver."

Perhaps I misread your original post:
Quote: "If you use the same gun, and the same bullet type, will the recoil be less with say 165 gr versus a 200 gr shell. I am talking about commercial ammo from the same manufacturer."
 
this might be helpful. The NRA factbook, in its chapter on ballistics, explains recoil. As has been previously stated in this thread, recoil is a function of momentum. And momentum can be mathematically stated as mass times velocity. Interestingly, the amount of recoil is equal to the amount of 'knockdown' power of a round.
 
Ok Dusty, I'll take a whack at your questions. First of all, since you now understand that it is bullet weight you were asking about and not powder weight, I have corrected your thread title.

Why not put velocity numbers on the box of ammo, say from a specific barrel length?
It would be impossible for an ammo manufacturer to know all the specifics of your firearm so it would be impossible for them to predict the actual bullet velocity from their ammo. The same length barrel is only of many variables to be considered. Don't forget that lots of ammo can be fired from both a semiauto and a revolver, and the barrels of those two types are measured differently and even if they have the same length barrel will yield significant velocity differences.

Why not state type of powder and amount of powder?
They don't want people trying to duplicate their loads, not because theirs are so special, but from a safety standpoint. But, more importantly, they don't use powders that are readily available to the average shooter or reloader. They often use blends of powders that don't even have a name.

Does the type of projectile affect recoil? FMJ, JHP, etc. ( yes I know etc. is not a bullet type)
In general, no. As you now know, the weight of the bullet is more important than its shape with regards to recoil. That's not to say that bullets of the same weight won't have different recoil because they often will. For example, a lead bullet that weighs the same as a copper jacketed bullet might be loaded a little slower to prevent leading in the barrel. Therefore it will have a lower recoil value.

+P is achieved by using more powder, or different powder
what about low flash power versus non low flash? Shouldn't that be on the box as well. will that affect recoil and velocity?
The type of powder generally doesn't affect recoil as long as the bullet velocity is about the same. It would be nice if the manufacturers did state whether they used a low flash powder or not. Sometimes you can get that info on their website.

Often +P loads will yield more recoil than "standard" loads even if the bullet muzzle velocity is about the same. +P indicates a higher peak pressure and is not necessarily a higher velocity round. The bullet might be accelerated faster which would give you a higher felt recoil.

Why not put energy info on the box?
See the bit about bullet velocity.

shotgun shells don't refer to grains. They use shot size numbers.
Actually shotgun shells almost always state the "grains" of shot. Since you now know that grains is only a measure of weight, and shotgun shells almost always give their shot weight in ounces, you only have to convert to get the number of grains of shot. For example, for a shell with 1-1/8 ounces of shot, you would multiply 1-1/8 (1.125) times 437.5 (the number of grains in an ounce). So an average shotshell contains 492 grains of shot.

Shot size is a different aspect of shotshells from shot weight. It is selected by the shotgun shooter to match the intended use or target. (Same for gauge, shell length, shot velocity, powder weight (don't ask about that system), etc., etc.)
 
Why not put velocity numbers on the box of ammo, say from a specific barrel length?

Some have in the past. Certain folks, like Buffalobore and Double Tap list their ammo out of particular guns. Might have a look at their websites.

Why not state type of powder and amount of powder?

Powders used by commercial ammo companies are often not sold to the public. Also, the big three in particular try to make as much money as possible, so, they may use a powder that they know is not real suitable for the ammo they are loading, either to make money, or get rid of it.


Does the type of projectile affect recoil? FMJ, JHP, etc. ( yes I know etc. is not a bullet type)
Given equal weight, probably not.

+P is achieved by using more powder, or different powder
what about low flash power versus non low flash?

Flash is determined by how efficently the powder is burned in that particular loading. In other words, no flash if you have pretty much complete burn, before the bullet leaves the barrel. Also, I'm sure some powders burn at both different rates, and different amounts of light given off.
Shouldn't that be on the box as well. will that affect recoil and velocity?

The ammo companies, most of them, are into making money, and, if they can get you to spend 3 dollars for something that cost them 10 cents, it works for them.

Help us simple consumers out.

Why not put energy info on the box?

Some companies do.

After you buy enough ammo, you'll get a feel for what you are buying. Also, spend about 100 bucks, and get a chronograph, so you know what the stuff is doing out of your gun.

Commercial ammo is marketing, pure and simple. It's like trying to buy a car without getting fleeced...
 
All I have is anecdotal evidence...

I used to own a Kahr CW-40 (I've since sold it and moved away from .40S&W as a platform all together)

I'd regularly shoot 180gr WWB (both JHP and FMJ) as well as 180gr Blazer Brass FMJ through it.

Very easily manageable recoil, considering it's a lightweight pistol firing a high-pressure round.

When I found some Federal 165gr JHP defensive ammunition, though, thought I'd give it a whirl. I think that production on that exact ammo had ceased around the time I bought it, I never did find it on their website.

In a word, recoil under these cartriges: Brutal

I could only handle 2 mags before it just hurt too bad.

So, in MY experience, recoil was much harsher under the lighter weight bullet than the heavier.

-J-
 
Actually shotgun shells almost always state the "grains" of shot.

My boxes all give shot loads in ounces.

They do have 'drams equivalent' on many though.
This is a comparative measure of velocity, based on the drams of black powder that would achieve a matching velocity.
A dram is 27.34 grains (1/16th of an ounce).

Recoil is calculated by finding the momentum of all the ejecta from the gun.
The (bullet weight * velocity) + (powder weight * velocity (often taken as a multiple of the bullet velocity)).

This is then divided by the weight of the gun to determine the recoil velocity of the gun.

This velocity is then plugged into 0.5 * mass gun * (velocity gun)^2 to calculate the free recoil energy.

This energy is what must be dissipated by the person firing the gun.

Depending on the actual gun some of the recoil energy will appear directly backwards, and some as a torque rotating the gun.
This is the part that creates 'perceived recoil.'

A handgun with a bore well above the grip may rotate more and produce less rearward force.
A rifle can push straight back, or if the but plate is at the wrong angle back and up smacking you on the cheek.

ETA: don't forget that the masses must be in slugs for the US system.
 
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Great ballistics info , any reading recommendations?

Great info. Thank you all. Mal H was very informative. It is obvious that there some real ballistic experts here. Thanks for responding in detail. I appreciate it.

Is there any recommendations for manuals on ballistics, bullet trajectories vs caliber etc?
 
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