FYI: found the following quotes here:
http://www.afte.org/Trnsmgfd.htm
Hope you find them (and the original review from which they came) helpful -- I have:
---------
"Mr. Larry Fletcher, of the Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences.... emphatically disagrees with
Marshall's and Sanow's recommendation of lightweight high-velocity projectiles
such as the 9mm 115gr and 115gr +P+ JHP, .357 Magnum 110gr and 125gr JHP bullets, and .45 ACP 185gr JHP and 185gr +P+ JHP bullets. The Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences finds the overexpansion and excessive fragmentation typically exhibited by these bullets results in stretch and crush cavities at too shallow a depth. Mr. Fletcher strongly emphasizes that all of these loads offer inadequate performance for law enforcement use since they exhibit insufficient penetration to consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, especially from the transverse and oblique angles commonly encountered in law enforcement shootings. The Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences recommends cartridges which offer reasonable penetration and reliable expansion without fragmentation, such as the 9mm 147gr JHP, .40 S&W 180gr JHP, and .45 ACP 230gr JHP."
"After extensive testing to determine the best 9mm JHP ammunition for personal defense use in the XM-11 9mm compact pistol designated for military criminal investigators, military police, Department of Defense security personnel, and military intelligence agencies, ordnance engineers selected the 9mm 147gr JHP, citing its "outstanding performance" compared to 9mm 124gr and 115gr JHP ammunition. (26) The test report makes special note that the various 9mm 115gr +P+ and 124gr +P+ JHP cartridges offered the worst performance of any ammunition tested. The 9mm 147gr JHP is also in current operational use by some U.S. military special operations forces and, despite Marshall's and Sanow's opinion, it has proven quite effective when fired from pistols such as the Sig P-226 and Beretta M9/10 (92F/92FS)."
"While not a "wonder bullet", the subsonic 9mm 147gr JHP does offer measurably more effective terminal performance over a wider range of conditions than lightweight, high velocity 9mm JHP bullets and non-expanding 9mm FMJ bullets. The published forensic data verifies that the 9mm 147gr JHP bullet offers sufficient penetration and reliable expansion when fired into human tissue and that it is a successful bullet for law enforcement use."
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Obviously many will disagree with the above quotes and the original report. While opinions are numerous, and we all have many, I have to give this report a lot of weight. I find it hard to believe that the authors (who have their e-mail addresses listed in the report, btw) would have anything but the most noblest of intentions in critiquing M&S's conclusions and methods. They seem to be credible authorities and they stick to the facts. And its not all "lab vs. real-world" either. Note in the report that they compare real-world penetration from shooting victims with 10% ordinance gel. penetration.
The report, btw, is on the web site for the Association of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners -- hardly a partisan organization, one would think.
Anyway, this is not a "my caliber is better than your caliber" post. Note in the above quotes that they give the best bullet weights for a variety of calibers.
Hope someone finds this helpful. I also hope that those who disagree with the above quotes and the report will provide us with some good reasons for their position.
Sorry if this post upsets anyone. I am just trying to pass along good info and get good feedback.
------------------
Great daily commentary on some of life's most important questions:
http://www.str.org/cgi-local/daily_commentary.pl
[This message has been edited by adad (edited January 04, 2000).]
http://www.afte.org/Trnsmgfd.htm
Hope you find them (and the original review from which they came) helpful -- I have:
---------
"Mr. Larry Fletcher, of the Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences.... emphatically disagrees with
Marshall's and Sanow's recommendation of lightweight high-velocity projectiles
such as the 9mm 115gr and 115gr +P+ JHP, .357 Magnum 110gr and 125gr JHP bullets, and .45 ACP 185gr JHP and 185gr +P+ JHP bullets. The Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences finds the overexpansion and excessive fragmentation typically exhibited by these bullets results in stretch and crush cavities at too shallow a depth. Mr. Fletcher strongly emphasizes that all of these loads offer inadequate performance for law enforcement use since they exhibit insufficient penetration to consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, especially from the transverse and oblique angles commonly encountered in law enforcement shootings. The Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences recommends cartridges which offer reasonable penetration and reliable expansion without fragmentation, such as the 9mm 147gr JHP, .40 S&W 180gr JHP, and .45 ACP 230gr JHP."
"After extensive testing to determine the best 9mm JHP ammunition for personal defense use in the XM-11 9mm compact pistol designated for military criminal investigators, military police, Department of Defense security personnel, and military intelligence agencies, ordnance engineers selected the 9mm 147gr JHP, citing its "outstanding performance" compared to 9mm 124gr and 115gr JHP ammunition. (26) The test report makes special note that the various 9mm 115gr +P+ and 124gr +P+ JHP cartridges offered the worst performance of any ammunition tested. The 9mm 147gr JHP is also in current operational use by some U.S. military special operations forces and, despite Marshall's and Sanow's opinion, it has proven quite effective when fired from pistols such as the Sig P-226 and Beretta M9/10 (92F/92FS)."
"While not a "wonder bullet", the subsonic 9mm 147gr JHP does offer measurably more effective terminal performance over a wider range of conditions than lightweight, high velocity 9mm JHP bullets and non-expanding 9mm FMJ bullets. The published forensic data verifies that the 9mm 147gr JHP bullet offers sufficient penetration and reliable expansion when fired into human tissue and that it is a successful bullet for law enforcement use."
---------
Obviously many will disagree with the above quotes and the original report. While opinions are numerous, and we all have many, I have to give this report a lot of weight. I find it hard to believe that the authors (who have their e-mail addresses listed in the report, btw) would have anything but the most noblest of intentions in critiquing M&S's conclusions and methods. They seem to be credible authorities and they stick to the facts. And its not all "lab vs. real-world" either. Note in the report that they compare real-world penetration from shooting victims with 10% ordinance gel. penetration.
The report, btw, is on the web site for the Association of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners -- hardly a partisan organization, one would think.
Anyway, this is not a "my caliber is better than your caliber" post. Note in the above quotes that they give the best bullet weights for a variety of calibers.
Hope someone finds this helpful. I also hope that those who disagree with the above quotes and the report will provide us with some good reasons for their position.
Sorry if this post upsets anyone. I am just trying to pass along good info and get good feedback.
------------------
Great daily commentary on some of life's most important questions:
http://www.str.org/cgi-local/daily_commentary.pl
[This message has been edited by adad (edited January 04, 2000).]