Shadi Khalil
New member
Between JHP and FMJ, is one more prone to bullet set back then the other?
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Bullet Set Back
- Thread starter Shadi Khalil
- Start date
The only possible difference...
Would be if the nose of the bullet was digging into the feed ramp, which a JHP with a lot of exposed lead might do.
JHP designs for autopistols have very little to no exposed lead at the tip, for this reason. If you handload a bullet style intended for a revolver, where lots of exposed lead is common, (and of no consequence,) it might work well, or it might not.
Bullet setback is a defective condition. It means that the ammo was made without enough neck tension. And this can happen, even from quality makers. Gun design might also have a little bit to do with it, some designs might put more force on the bullet during feeding than others, but I don't think it is a big factor, if it actually is one at all.
I have seen some rounds chambered a few times get setback. I have also had personal experience with some rounds chambered hundreds of times (perhaps more) over a 20 year period with NO setback. These rounds had been chambered so many times that there were brass streaks showing through the nickel plating. After being carry ammo for 20 years (and never being needed), they were finally fired up. And you know what? Funtion was perfect, and the point of impact was the same as the point of aim, just like it had been 20 years earlier!
Do I trust all my ammo to do this? Hell NO! But I do trust some of it, because it has been tested, and proven to my satisfaction.
Would be if the nose of the bullet was digging into the feed ramp, which a JHP with a lot of exposed lead might do.
JHP designs for autopistols have very little to no exposed lead at the tip, for this reason. If you handload a bullet style intended for a revolver, where lots of exposed lead is common, (and of no consequence,) it might work well, or it might not.
Bullet setback is a defective condition. It means that the ammo was made without enough neck tension. And this can happen, even from quality makers. Gun design might also have a little bit to do with it, some designs might put more force on the bullet during feeding than others, but I don't think it is a big factor, if it actually is one at all.
I have seen some rounds chambered a few times get setback. I have also had personal experience with some rounds chambered hundreds of times (perhaps more) over a 20 year period with NO setback. These rounds had been chambered so many times that there were brass streaks showing through the nickel plating. After being carry ammo for 20 years (and never being needed), they were finally fired up. And you know what? Funtion was perfect, and the point of impact was the same as the point of aim, just like it had been 20 years earlier!
Do I trust all my ammo to do this? Hell NO! But I do trust some of it, because it has been tested, and proven to my satisfaction.
Shadi Khalil
New member
Thanks for the insight guys.
Yes, they were...
They were the last 7 rnds of Federal 185gr JHP .45ACP from the two boxes I bought with the gun, a Browning BDA .45 in 1980!
I am a dedicated handloader, so nearly all the rounds I have fired from that gun have been handloads. However I had kept the last 7 rnds of that Fed factory stuff, which worked flawlessly, and shot point of aim at 25yds, as my "emergency" loaded mag for many, many years. I did this primarily as a hedge against the (admittedly remote) possibility of handloads being a factor in a defensive situation.
When I went out carrying, this ammo did too. The rounds had been chambered so many times over the years that there were brass stripes showing through the nickel plating of the cases. Never any setback.
I have seen setback on other factory rounds, that I have aquired, usually ones in loose lots of mixed ammo, no telling the history there.
Cheap ammo is the most likely to suffer setback, but it has happened with some ammo from all the main makers too, over the years. QC is, after all, done by humans.
If you have factory ammo that is getting setback (and more than a single round from a box, please notify the maker, and if at all possible, save the box and any unused ammo. The maker will want the lot# of the ammo, and may want unfired ammo back. Follow thier intsructions about returns. Usually ammo companies, while sorry for the bad rounds, are very happy to get this information, so they can take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. BE nice, and you may get some goodies from them as a thank you.
Note also that one rarely sees bullet setback with GI ammo, even the cheapest military surplus ammo (something increasingly rare) almost never gets much setback, due to the fact that the rounds are made to survive the roughest handling, and the bullet sealant normally used goes a long way to ensuring that.
Also, don't blame bullet setback, from normal chambering, on the gun design. While some designs may exert more force on the bullet during the chambering cycle than others, when setback occurs from normal chambering, its the fault of the ammo not being up to it, not the fault of the gun.
Bullet setback in a mischambered round is relatively normal. That's damage, and something else entirely. A round that jams takes the full force of the closing action, often with the bullet getting "seated" a little deeper than normal as a result.
Its the same result, a setback bullet raising pressure if fired, sometimes dangerously. Check any ejected rounds carefully before going to shoot them.
44 AMP, that super-durable round with no setback, was that a factory load?
They were the last 7 rnds of Federal 185gr JHP .45ACP from the two boxes I bought with the gun, a Browning BDA .45 in 1980!
I am a dedicated handloader, so nearly all the rounds I have fired from that gun have been handloads. However I had kept the last 7 rnds of that Fed factory stuff, which worked flawlessly, and shot point of aim at 25yds, as my "emergency" loaded mag for many, many years. I did this primarily as a hedge against the (admittedly remote) possibility of handloads being a factor in a defensive situation.
When I went out carrying, this ammo did too. The rounds had been chambered so many times over the years that there were brass stripes showing through the nickel plating of the cases. Never any setback.
I have seen setback on other factory rounds, that I have aquired, usually ones in loose lots of mixed ammo, no telling the history there.
Cheap ammo is the most likely to suffer setback, but it has happened with some ammo from all the main makers too, over the years. QC is, after all, done by humans.
If you have factory ammo that is getting setback (and more than a single round from a box, please notify the maker, and if at all possible, save the box and any unused ammo. The maker will want the lot# of the ammo, and may want unfired ammo back. Follow thier intsructions about returns. Usually ammo companies, while sorry for the bad rounds, are very happy to get this information, so they can take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. BE nice, and you may get some goodies from them as a thank you.
Note also that one rarely sees bullet setback with GI ammo, even the cheapest military surplus ammo (something increasingly rare) almost never gets much setback, due to the fact that the rounds are made to survive the roughest handling, and the bullet sealant normally used goes a long way to ensuring that.
Also, don't blame bullet setback, from normal chambering, on the gun design. While some designs may exert more force on the bullet during the chambering cycle than others, when setback occurs from normal chambering, its the fault of the ammo not being up to it, not the fault of the gun.
Bullet setback in a mischambered round is relatively normal. That's damage, and something else entirely. A round that jams takes the full force of the closing action, often with the bullet getting "seated" a little deeper than normal as a result.
Its the same result, a setback bullet raising pressure if fired, sometimes dangerously. Check any ejected rounds carefully before going to shoot them.
44 AMP said:Also, don't blame bullet setback, from normal chambering, on the gun design. While some designs may exert more force on the bullet during the chambering cycle than others, when setback occurs from normal chambering, its the fault of the ammo not being up to it, not the fault of the gun.
Agree. When I said my 1911 had more problems, it was with ammo that clearly had set-back problems. I was firing three .45's and my 1911 seemed to have the most set-back. I am just saying if you have bad ammo for set-back it might show up even more with a 1911 type.
The ammo was Blazer brass. 200 rounds from Wal-Mart about two years ago. Had about 15% failure rate. Some as bad as 1/8".
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Setback has nothing to do with the type of gun. As stated earlier it is from lack of case neck tension. It has nothing to do with crimp or bullet style. Any round that sets back from feeding in a semi auto or pulls bullets in a revolver is defective. The ammo companies didn't seem to have this problem 20 years ago but it is becoming very common now. It is quite simply poor quality control. I have handloaded for semi autos and revolvers used in heavy frequent competition and have never had a round setback or pull.
Setback has nothing to do with the type of gun. As stated earlier it is from lack of case neck tension. It has nothing to do with crimp or bullet style. Any round that sets back from feeding in a semi auto or pulls bullets in a revolver is defective. The ammo companies didn't seem to have this problem 20 years ago but it is becoming very common now. It is quite simply poor quality control. I have handloaded for semi autos and revolvers used in heavy frequent competition and have never had a round setback or pull.
I'm not sure exactly how common it is, but it's certainly getting a lot of internet attention lately.
I've been watching my ammo for a while, due solely to the internet attention it's getting. The loads I've used in my G23, including my handloads, haven't shown any tendancy to set back. I've chambered and rechambered the same cartridge many times, and I haven't experienced it. I compare the re-chambered cartridge to an unchambered one for comparison, using a guage.
As for bullets pulling in a revolver, I've experienced that. The loads I experienced it with wouldn't be used in any type of competition I'm aware of, since recoil is fairly stout. It was factory ammo, made by Cor-Bon. It happened with heavy bullets pushed hard, like Cor-Bon is famous for, and I solved it by running the rest of the box through a crimp die.
I've never experienced it with my handloads. I load the same-weight and type bullets in the same cartridge, and use a heavy crimp. H110 requires the heavy crimp for proper ignition.
All this said, I'm not sure I'd say that bullet "pull" doesn't have anything to do with crimp on a revolver cartridge. Heavy bullets loaded to higher velocities from a revolver have fairly stout recoil. This recoil, with several shots, starts to work like an inertia bullet puller used by many handloaders. A good crimp can help alieviate that affect, when neck tension alone might not.
Cartridges for most (?) semi-auto pistol cartridges have to rely more on neck tension, since a heavy crimp might interfere with headspacing.
But semi-auto cartridges don't usually recoil like a higher powered, big bore revolver cartridge with a 300+ grain bullet, either.
Daryl
Trust me, crimp won't stop setback if the case neck tension is insufficient. Think of it like this - if I hold a baseball bat with just the thumb and index finger of one hand and you try to pull it out, it's pretty easy for you to do. Now if I hold it tightly with all the fingers on both hands, it's not nearly as easy. And heavily crimping rounds can actually make the fit looser because the bullet becomes deformed enough that it doesn't present as much surface area to the case neck. If the cases are not being resized to the proper dia. and the expander plug is not 4 or 5 thous. smaller than the bullet's dia., the bullets will not be held firmly enough. I have turned down the expander plugs in almost all of my pistol dies because they were over expanding the neck. Once I did that I have never had bullets pull in revolvers or setback in semi autos. I think the internet has brought this problem to the attention of lots of people who maybe never considered it and I think we have a lot more people loading and unloading and rechambering the same round over and over now. But back in the 80s I never heard of factory rounds setting back. Maybe I just never heard about it.
drail said:But back in the 80s I never heard of factory rounds setting back. Maybe I just never heard about it.
I have been shooting since circa 1949 and I did not experience set-back until recent years. But I was shooting mostly .45ACP manufactured to military standards.
drail said:Setback has nothing to do with the type of gun.
Yes and no. If a round has a loose fit then the 1911 type will show the problem more than others, but I agree it's a faulty round.