CENTURION1945
Inactive
Hi. There are some one with personal experince with Buffalo Bore ammo? Publicity show the item 20B, a .38 Spl. load with a 125 gr. JHP bullet at 1258 fps in a 4" barrel S&W Mountain Gun, and 1072 fps in a M60 2" barrel.
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Buffalo bore ammo
- Thread starter CENTURION1945
- Start date
What we know for SURE about that load is that it uses a Gold Dot projectile from Speer.
Which is a good thing.
Gold Dots tend to hold together exceptionally well when driven faster than average. The copper jacket is a heavy electroplate layer on the lead core and is bonded to that lead core better than with any other jacketed hollowpoint design. Gold Dots seriously resist "coming apart" at high speed yet tend to expand very well. There's other designs out there that try and resist jacket separation via a stronger jacket, but these often fail to expand at 38Spl/38+P speeds - the Hornady XTP is the most notorious for this but others abound.
The other thing we know about Buffalo Bore is that when they (meaning owner Tim Sundles) says a given load is going at a certain speed from a certain gun, and somebody else checks later, time and again Tim's data is proven accurate.
Upshot: that is one hell of a good load. It's got a good, well known bullet going like a bat outta hell yet still within the performance envelope of that projectile.
Which is a good thing.
Gold Dots tend to hold together exceptionally well when driven faster than average. The copper jacket is a heavy electroplate layer on the lead core and is bonded to that lead core better than with any other jacketed hollowpoint design. Gold Dots seriously resist "coming apart" at high speed yet tend to expand very well. There's other designs out there that try and resist jacket separation via a stronger jacket, but these often fail to expand at 38Spl/38+P speeds - the Hornady XTP is the most notorious for this but others abound.
The other thing we know about Buffalo Bore is that when they (meaning owner Tim Sundles) says a given load is going at a certain speed from a certain gun, and somebody else checks later, time and again Tim's data is proven accurate.
Upshot: that is one hell of a good load. It's got a good, well known bullet going like a bat outta hell yet still within the performance envelope of that projectile.
...haven't tried it....
Well, I haven't tried it although I did have the opportunity to do so. I can find hotter, with lower chamber pressure, loads cheaper in other brands. I wouldn't turn a box down if it was offered, but it is more expensive than other rounds (even SD) rounds.--Patrice
Well, I haven't tried it although I did have the opportunity to do so. I can find hotter, with lower chamber pressure, loads cheaper in other brands. I wouldn't turn a box down if it was offered, but it is more expensive than other rounds (even SD) rounds.--Patrice
What Tim is doing is using slower-burn powders and trying to keep the peak pressure burn going for as long as possible.
In other words, say we have two loads. One is peaking at 20,000psi and is safe for the gun (and shooter). Another is peaking at 40,000 and most definitely isn't safe. Yet if the 20,000psi load can hold that for double the length of time, it can match the "narrow sharp spike" of a load yet be far safer.
It isn't total pressure over time that blows up guns, it's the total peak - even if that peak is shaped like the Eiffel Tower.
Tim can do this by experimentation and a really good pressure test machine that handloaders generally don't have access to.
But it costs. Oh, does it cost.
In other words, say we have two loads. One is peaking at 20,000psi and is safe for the gun (and shooter). Another is peaking at 40,000 and most definitely isn't safe. Yet if the 20,000psi load can hold that for double the length of time, it can match the "narrow sharp spike" of a load yet be far safer.
It isn't total pressure over time that blows up guns, it's the total peak - even if that peak is shaped like the Eiffel Tower.
Tim can do this by experimentation and a really good pressure test machine that handloaders generally don't have access to.
But it costs. Oh, does it cost.
I like BBs version of the FBI load. And the company also offers some standard pressure loads that look promising. I have bought some with an eye to using them in my Colt snubbies.
I've tried the +P version. Somehow, it produces 1050 fps from my 3" M66. That's 100 fps faster than the Federal FBI load produced out of my 4" M586.
Recoil is stout, and I won't use it in my Det. Special or any J-Frame. Great load in my M66 or 586.
This, apparently, is a rather soft leaded load. Their site points out that they produced some of their loads with short bbl. (and therefore short ejector rods) .357 Mag.'s in mine for more reliable ejection.
They have a standard pressure version which would be more in line, I think, with the old FBI load LSWCHP +P that we're familiar with.
Produces recoil about like CorBon's .357DPX midrange load (at 1300 fps from 3" M66)--or maybe a mite more.
CENTURION1945
Inactive
BB ammo
Patrice: Tell me please what brand do you know in .38 Spl. with higher velocity and lower pressure (???) and price than BB ammo. The 125 gr. load I ask for is almost a medium velocity .357 Magnum, so must be the pressure. Remenber magic powder does not exist even for facory loads.
Another point to know Jim, is what is best for fast stops: fragmenting bullets like Sierra, or those like Gold Dot? Here there are a long debate.
Patrice: Tell me please what brand do you know in .38 Spl. with higher velocity and lower pressure (???) and price than BB ammo. The 125 gr. load I ask for is almost a medium velocity .357 Magnum, so must be the pressure. Remenber magic powder does not exist even for facory loads.
Another point to know Jim, is what is best for fast stops: fragmenting bullets like Sierra, or those like Gold Dot? Here there are a long debate.
When a JHP fragments, it just leaves dribbles of scrap lead and copper along the wound channel. As far as I'm concerned, that does NOTHING to help stop the threat and hurts the cause by letting the main projectile drop back down in size.
I'll take a Gold Dot that hangs together any day of the week.
Part of the confusion on this point is from gelatin photos of real frangible bullets like the Glasers, Magsafes, etc. Those tend to throw a spray of small bits FORWARD and to the sides, which is a whole different thing and far more deadly than the "dribbles in the wound channel" when a JHP comes apart. Mind you, to get a frangible to work right you need a lot of power behind it, in my view 357Magnum or better yet, 44Magnum or a good rifle round (308/223/etc). At 9mm and below energy levels, I don't think frangibles punch deep enough. But at least the particles they do spray out FORWARD of the impact area do damage.
I'll take a Gold Dot that hangs together any day of the week.
Part of the confusion on this point is from gelatin photos of real frangible bullets like the Glasers, Magsafes, etc. Those tend to throw a spray of small bits FORWARD and to the sides, which is a whole different thing and far more deadly than the "dribbles in the wound channel" when a JHP comes apart. Mind you, to get a frangible to work right you need a lot of power behind it, in my view 357Magnum or better yet, 44Magnum or a good rifle round (308/223/etc). At 9mm and below energy levels, I don't think frangibles punch deep enough. But at least the particles they do spray out FORWARD of the impact area do damage.
Packs a punch & turns heads...
I shoot the BB 158 gr JHC in my Bond Derringer .357 mag.
This ammo turns heads at the range & packs a punch. I don't have any way to test the velocity, etc.; but I can tell you they should do the job. Box says: 1475 fps & 763 ftp.
I enjoy the power & sound.
I shoot the BB 158 gr JHC in my Bond Derringer .357 mag.
This ammo turns heads at the range & packs a punch. I don't have any way to test the velocity, etc.; but I can tell you they should do the job. Box says: 1475 fps & 763 ftp.
I enjoy the power & sound.
When a JHP fragments, it just leaves dribbles of scrap lead and copper along the wound channel. As far as I'm concerned, that does NOTHING to help stop the threat and hurts the cause by letting the main projectile drop back down in size.
There are some who disagree and point out that jacket seperations and fragments produce more little missles that produce wounds.
In any event, the .357 125 gr. JHP or SJHP tended to fragment with regularity. Some seem to forget that fact when claiming that bullets that hold together no matter what are the only way to go.
I'm not criticizing bullet technology that keeps bullets from coming apart, nor bullets that shed their jackets (and produce fragments)with proven street effectiveness.
Not talking about poorly designed bullets, or those driven to fast, that completely fragment and fail to penetrate.
There are some who disagree and point out that jacket seperations and fragments produce more little missles that produce wounds.
Then they haven't studied gelatin photos of bullets doing that.
Sigh.
Look, the chunks coming off are dribbling off the edge of the hollowpoint "mushroom". Where do you think they're going to go? Yeah, back into the "slipstream" behind the bullet, where they come to rest in the area already trashed by the bullet plowing through. How is that doing more damage, other than maybe making things more annoying for a trauma surgeon later?
Throw a piece of trash out your car's window. Is it going to go flying to the front or side? Nope. It'll get sucked in behind the car first.
Same deal here. The speeds are higher(!) and instead of wind pressure the pieces are flowing through "liquid with the occasional bone".
The only time you get "explosively forward traveling bits" is if the round more or less shatters on impact, which happens with frangible rounds. It *might* happen if you really seriously "overdrive" a mediocre slug...say, take something meant for 38Spl, load it as a full-house 357 AND shoot it out of a longish barrel. But now you've got penetration problems...
Then they haven't studied gelatin photos of bullets doing that.
Well, maybe pieces of lead end up in "the slip stream" along the wound path, but fragmented copper jackets turn into wound projectiles.
We've all, including you I'd say, seen pictures of Xrays showing bullet fragments in the victim's thorax or brain. Copper jacket fragments that, in some cases, penetrated as much as the bullet itself.
And, again, what about the .357 mag's tendency to fragment as described? Ammo makers have been trying to achieve the effectiveness of that same JACKET separating bullet in different bullet designs and calibers ever since. Most haven't done it. What's the argument about?
Deaf Smith
New member
I have personally chroned the 158gr LSWHP. Their claim is 1000 fps from a 2 inch barrel. Well I can say it makes it. Used a Smith 64 2 inch snub. And from my 2.75 inch Speed Six it gets an honest 1100 fps!!!
Yes Buffalo Bore ammo is the real deal.
Yes Buffalo Bore ammo is the real deal.
I use the hardcast heavy rounds in both my .357 GP100 and my Blackhawk .41 Mag. Both guns can stand the pressure, and to be honest I don't really notice any more recoil out of either gun.
The ammo is not for range, I use it in bear country so I don't mind the cost of one box each every so often. I've got plenty of lighter loads for the range. The only thing commercially you can find for the same purpose is Garrett, and it's even more expensive than Buffalo Bore.
The ammo is not for range, I use it in bear country so I don't mind the cost of one box each every so often. I've got plenty of lighter loads for the range. The only thing commercially you can find for the same purpose is Garrett, and it's even more expensive than Buffalo Bore.