Budget AR builds and accuracy

T

timelinex

New member
Lately I have been considering getting an ar15 and it just came to my attention that semi-auto AR's are much less accurate than bolt guns, in the same price ranges (not custom and high $$). I know that every sniper ninja online gets .25MOA out of their bushmasters, but it seems like any thread that has experienced members talking their numbers dont look as good.

There's obviously a million and one which AR should I buy threads, I haven't seen a thread where this is answered, so if it is just point me to it(I posted this on SH as well)...

What is, in your opinion, the best AR15 rifle in the following price brackets AND what is the HONEST average MOA that can be expected out of it.
A) Under $600
B) Under $1000
C) Under $1200

This is for everything included for the rifle to function, but not including optic. It can also include put together rifle combinations but as before, it has to include everything needed. I fugre over $1200 isn't really needed to be discuessed, and thats discussed enough.. Many fine custom rifle makers out there that will make you a .5MOA AR for the right price I'm sure.
 
The rifle is just as accurate, and usually more accurate than the shooter. I won't post any AR brands as there are countless different AR's to choose from, and even more variety if you choose to build.

what are you trying to achieve with accuracy? Are you LEO, ex-military, competition shooter? If you're only a civilian recrational shooter, you basic AR15 should be plenty accurate.

If you're a pro/LEO, then you shouldn't be asking this question to begin with.
 
i just recently got a Rock River Arms Varmint A4 24" SS Upper and i must say this gun is impressive. It will shoot under 1 MOA and this is with a crappy factory trigger. I've been putting it on my lower from my Bushmaster 7.62x39 till i can build a lower for it which the trigger is more for tactical use than precision shooting. So once this has a proper trigger to it as well, i can't wait to see what it will do.

If you aren't in a rush and want a very well built upper assembly, look into White Oak Armament.
 
I'm not LEO or military, but I have been shooting with a bolt gun and used to good accuracy(avg of .6MOA).

From what I have collected, a decent rifle could be had by combing the PSA Upper and their Lower. Can something like this even be capable of MOA with match ammo? Or is that only luck of the draw...

To be honest I'm uninformed in the AR world because I wasn't planning on getting one for a bit, but with holidays coming up fast, it's an option. Usually I do buttloads of research, but I don't have much time to decide whether I want one so figured I would get some straight answers from you guys. I would be satisfied with 1MOA accuracy, but if something can't be had for around 600 that wont do that, I might as well just not get it. I know I won't be satisfied with 2moa after coming from the bolt world.
 
AR's are combat carbines. Ive seen people spend thousands accurizing them and they have created truly accurate firearms. The problem is, they've broken the design philosophy. They've turned a battle rifle into a target rifle which is much more fragile than it was designed to be.

You end up with a vanity piece. You've gone against the design of the weapon, a design that cost tens of millions in R+D costs performed by expert engineers.

It's a great way to waste some cash but if you want to, go for it. :D

Otherwise, buy a real sniper setup.
 
Honest .25 MOA rifle, Bushmaster Varminter, $1,200. national match chamber and non-chromed fluted 24 inch heavy barrel, two stage match trigger, free floated handguard and certified from the factory at .50 MOA. But you can do much better than .50 MOA with your own handloads.

Jim
SAM_0544.jpg
 
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Good info above.
There is a trade off in firearms between very tight tolerances- which translate to accuracy, and reliability.

I've never believed any "stock" AR is capable of .5 moa accuracy from the factory in the price range you're looking at.

So, I challenge you guys to prove me wrong- with a "five on five"...

That means five consecutive targets on the same paper- all of them five shot groups, all of them measuring under .5 moa.

Just because a rifle shoots "whatever" occasionally, or most of the time, doesn't cut it in my book.

Post em up...

Sorry about the hijack, but it's really to answer your question...
 
I've never believed any "stock" AR is capable of .5 moa accuracy from the factory in the price range you're looking at.
Click to expand...

Oh ye of little faith. Neither did I, that was untill I bought the one above.

If your in the Chicagoland area, let's go shooting. You can do those groups yourself with my equipment and rounds. And yes those rounds in front are match ammo. PM me and we can setup a date to shoot, the hell that it's 24 degrees and snowing.

Thanks
Jim

SAM_0547.jpg



So, I challenge you guys to prove me wrong- with a "five on five"...
Click to expand...


If you think that that one shoots good, you have to try this one, it runs rings around the AR.

SAM_0245.jpg
 
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I've never believed any "stock" AR is capable of .5 moa accuracy from the factory in the price range you're looking at.

So, I challenge you guys to prove me wrong- with a "five on five"...

That means five consecutive targets on the same paper- all of them five shot groups, all of them measuring under .5 moa.

Just because a rifle shoots "whatever" occasionally, or most of the time, doesn't cut it in my book.
Click to expand...

You're probably right. My M&P 15 OR will occasionaly shoot that group but realistically, I'm the limiting factor. I'm probably more of an MOA shooter. But since there is a challenge out, I am going to try with two rifles, my M&P Sport and my M&P OR. Neither one has had a trigger job or been free floated. Changes are cosmetic as in handguard, stock and pistol grip. The bigger challenge for me is when I can get out to the range.

BTW - I'm not claiming I can shoot .5 MOA five in a row. I just want to see how I do. :)
 
Military specification for getting groups is TEN shots. Typical posts by bolt gunners are cherry picked three shot groups, and often with great scopes under the difficult terms of using the 25 yard line.

Naturally, the bolt gunners look a lot better on line. Completely erroneous assumption to believe them as a credible example, tho.

Trying to compare the two types of actions for accuracy would be difficult, since the entire point that one is self loading for rapid second or third shots is it's purpose. Given the same maker barrel, cartridge, ammo lot, both are free floated, use the same scope, shot by the same shooter at the same range on the same day, most of us could accept the bolt action being as much as .25MOA more accurate.

Now, make it fair for the AR15, and shoot both - 30 rounds in 45 seconds. You're going to have serious problems keeping up the pace just cycling the bolt, and reloading the blind magazine three times is a fail.

You only need 2MOA to shoot out to 500m in combat, and the other guy is rarely just standing there waiting. With the adoption of the .300 Win Mag, ranges are getting pushed to 1,200m, and using a .50BMG, easily double. Nonetheless, the best accuracy on these guns is maybe .25MOA, roughly an 8" group at 2.5 kilometers. Bullet drop and wind drift would be major factors, not accuracy.

Any gun can be made accurate enough, it's the shooters ability to estimate distance and the affect of wind a half mile away that is important. You can tell who the real long distance shooters are, the gun ranks pretty far down the list of what's important in a shot. They aren't the variable that needs constant finesse, it's the environment that gets full concentration. Are there obstacles in the flight path of the bullet - which isn't line of sight - crosswinds from intersections or hills that change the wind direction, mirage, temperature conditions that reduce ammo power or impede flight, fog, dust, traffic, darkness, or simply lack of enough visual information to make the shot? Who's "wearing the radio" or directing others? Behavioral analysis factors in, too.

Accuracy is a matter of money or a hand receipt. Making the shot is something else entirely. You can't "buy" a skill, you have to practice it to keep sharp.
 
1 MOA out of a bone stock AR isn't that hard to achieve. In fact, its pretty common. Not all of mine will do that, but both of the A2s and most of the M4s will as long as I'm using good ammo and optics from a bench.

Neither A1 will though, they were built from milsurp parts, I imagine that is why.

Shooting a 1MOA group doesn't require that much experience. The experience comes when you need to dope your shots so that the group is where you want it.
 
If you're trying to determine what the rifle can do- eliminate shooter error.
Lock it down in a shooting rest. With a high power optic.
Then you know anything outside those results are external to the rifle itself.
Natch, this is best done on a windless day...
 
Yea see that's part of the problem, as some of you mentioned , it's not made for long range precision, but seems like I'm trying I mold it to that.

So if I purchase the Psa upper/lower now and decide I don't like the accuracy... Is it gonna be simple to just change out the barrel woth a match barrel or am igonna have to change more than just the barrel to do a barrel swap. I'm talking about 5.56 here btw
 
Ok Ive decided I'm gonna either hold off on buying anything or go with this package HERE. If I decided I am not satisfied with the accuracy, I can always change the barrel and trigger. From everything I've read , right now the PSA is hard to beat for quality at its price point.
 
Military specification for getting groups is TEN shots. Typical posts by bolt gunners are cherry picked three shot groups, and often with great scopes under the difficult terms of using the 25 yard line.

Naturally, the bolt gunners look a lot better on line. Completely erroneous assumption to believe them as a credible example, tho.

Trying to compare the two types of actions for accuracy would be difficult, since the entire point that one is self loading for rapid second or third shots is it's purpose. Given the same maker barrel, cartridge, ammo lot, both are free floated, use the same scope, shot by the same shooter at the same range on the same day, most of us could accept the bolt action being as much as .25MOA more accurate.

Now, make it fair for the AR15, and shoot both - 30 rounds in 45 seconds. You're going to have serious problems keeping up the pace just cycling the bolt, and reloading the blind magazine three times is a fail.

You only need 2MOA to shoot out to 500m in combat, and the other guy is rarely just standing there waiting. With the adoption of the .300 Win Mag, ranges are getting pushed to 1,200m, and using a .50BMG, easily double. Nonetheless, the best accuracy on these guns is maybe .25MOA, roughly an 8" group at 2.5 kilometers. Bullet drop and wind drift would be major factors, not accuracy.

Any gun can be made accurate enough, it's the shooters ability to estimate distance and the affect of wind a half mile away that is important. You can tell who the real long distance shooters are, the gun ranks pretty far down the list of what's important in a shot. They aren't the variable that needs constant finesse, it's the environment that gets full concentration. Are there obstacles in the flight path of the bullet - which isn't line of sight - crosswinds from intersections or hills that change the wind direction, mirage, temperature conditions that reduce ammo power or impede flight, fog, dust, traffic, darkness, or simply lack of enough visual information to make the shot? Who's "wearing the radio" or directing others? Behavioral analysis factors in, too.

Accuracy is a matter of money or a hand receipt. Making the shot is something else entirely. You can't "buy" a skill, you have to practice it to keep sharp.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you for the most part. Just like in a real world situation, in uncomfortable positions and time stressed, I won't get anything close to the .6MOA my bolt gun is capable of when I'm relaxed at the range. It's gonna be my fault that I didn't make the shot, not the rifles. BUT, there is a reason accuracy out of a rifle is looked for. If its a 2MOA rifle, and because of my mistake I aimed 1moa Out of the perfect center of the 2MOA target, I have a good chance of not hitting the target. On the other hand if its a 1MOA rifle, then it will still hit the target(making up for my mistake). Same thing if I misdoped it or misread the wind by 1moa, a more accurate rifle while not a necessity DEFINITELY has its benefits.
 
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Quote
"Honest .25 MOA rifle, Bushmaster Varminter, $1,200. national match chamber and non-chromed fluted 24 inch heavy barrel, two stage match trigger, free floated handguard and certified from the factory at .50 MOA. But you can do much better than .50 MOA with your own handloads."


I was looking for one of these before i bought my RRA 24" Upper and i called Bushmaster about it and the guy said i've never heard of it and we don't sell them even though its on their website and catalog. So i went elsewhere
 
Timelinex wrote:
Lately I have been considering getting an ar15 and it just came to my attention that semi-auto AR's are much less accurate than bolt guns, in the same price ranges (not custom and high $$). I know that every sniper ninja online gets .25MOA out of their bushmasters, but it seems like any thread that has experienced members talking their numbers dont look as good.
Click to expand...


Entry level DPMS AR15
Eotech 1x red dot
Federal Eagle 55g 5.56 Nato
100 yards

DPMS_AR15_100yds.jpg


That's an 8" target.

For my tired old eyes, I'm very happy with that.
 
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