Browning A-5 riot gun
- Thread starter Millbilly
- Start date
mxsailor803
New member
belgium or japan gun?
I have a cut-down A5. Since the gun is recoil-operated (and the mass of the barrel factors into the recoil action), the biggest issue you will have is the loss of barrel mass. My 21" barrel needs to have the friction rings set up for heavy loads to function with light birdshot; I do not know if you can go any shorter and not wind up battering the action to death....
jaguarxk120
New member
Take a look on Auction Arms web site, Under shotguns/Browning, there is listed two police/riot guns from South Africa, one is a eight shot model.
There was never a production trench gun in the US based on the Browning. In fact there weren't any Browning riot guns made in WW2 for the US military either- the Browning factory was in Belgium, and got overrun by the Germans. There was no way they could manufacture shotguns for the US government after that. FN had licensed production of the Browning design to Remington in the early 1900s due to tariffs, so we had far more Remington Model 11s than early Brownings here in the US.
Browning produced what were called 'messenger guns' in the early 1900s, short barreled security type shotguns we would call riot guns today. That was the formal designation in their 1903 catalog (Grade No. 0, Messenger Gun). At the time, short barreled shotguns of all types- double barrels, pumps or semiautos- were often called messenger guns. They were intended for law enforcement, express company or bank guards, railway police etc. as fighting shotguns. So the history of Browning fighting shotguns goes way back.
There were Remington Model 11 riot guns used by the US military, Remington Sportsman riot guns (the 3-shot magazine Model 11, basically) and Savage 720 riot guns, but no Brownings. Browning autos were popular among partisans in Europe who fought the Germans, but as the war wore on ammunition dried up and the shotguns were abandoned for captured German military weapons, or the weapons supplied by the Allies who were supporting and guiding the partisan efforts (OSS, SOE, Jedburghs etc. ( http://ossinitaly.org/index.html , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services etc.)
And no one never really figured a way to make trench guns out of the long recoil type action shotguns. There were a few experiments and prototypes, but never a production model. Remington built a Model 11 trench gun prototype for WW1 in 1918 that had a sleeve or jacket around the barrel to which the bayonet lug was attached. The barrel recoiled inside the jacket which surrounded the barrel. If you think about how the long recoil action works, you'll understand why putting a bayonet on the barrel itself and sticking something with it was a Bad Idea. The barrel jacket idea worked, but it was never produced.
A number of US outlaws in the Depression era liked cut-down semiauto shotguns, John Dillinger, Clyde Barrow, and Bonnie Parker among them. They chopped the guns off as short as possible and didn't care how much they battered themselves- they tended not to keep guns very long anyway. rbernie is correct in his advice above about not taking too much off the barrel. And how much you can cut down the stock is limited by the bolt return spring tube that goes about halfway back. Here's a pic of Bonnie funnin' around with Clyde, with a cut-down Remington- http://www.accuracyproject.org/cbe-Barrow,Clyde.html . They liked having their pictures taken.
There were a good many sporting type shotguns used by the military in WW2 as training guns to teach budding aerial gunners (waist and turret gunners on heavy bombers) how to hit moving targets. And there were sporting guns owned by installation recreation activities used for skeet and trap shooting. Those guns were all military owned, and military marked. I'm told there were some Brownings in that number, I don't know if they were WW2 era or not.
Brownings were used by the British in Malaya in the guerrilla war there, which also saw the deployment of the Remington 870 in its first debut as a fighting shotgun not long after its introduction. The Rhodesians also used the Browning in their fight against communist guerrillas. That long-magazine Browning 'jungle gun' mentioned above as being listed at the auction site was prototyped in the 1960s, and at least a few of them saw production. It's an interesting variation, and I find it sort of surprising it wasn't kept in production.
Get your hands on a copy of Swearengen's The world's Fighting Shotguns for pictures of most of the things mentioned above... or see Canfield's book- http://www.brucecanfield.com/uscombatshotguns.html .
hth,
lpl
Browning produced what were called 'messenger guns' in the early 1900s, short barreled security type shotguns we would call riot guns today. That was the formal designation in their 1903 catalog (Grade No. 0, Messenger Gun). At the time, short barreled shotguns of all types- double barrels, pumps or semiautos- were often called messenger guns. They were intended for law enforcement, express company or bank guards, railway police etc. as fighting shotguns. So the history of Browning fighting shotguns goes way back.
There were Remington Model 11 riot guns used by the US military, Remington Sportsman riot guns (the 3-shot magazine Model 11, basically) and Savage 720 riot guns, but no Brownings. Browning autos were popular among partisans in Europe who fought the Germans, but as the war wore on ammunition dried up and the shotguns were abandoned for captured German military weapons, or the weapons supplied by the Allies who were supporting and guiding the partisan efforts (OSS, SOE, Jedburghs etc. ( http://ossinitaly.org/index.html , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services etc.)
And no one never really figured a way to make trench guns out of the long recoil type action shotguns. There were a few experiments and prototypes, but never a production model. Remington built a Model 11 trench gun prototype for WW1 in 1918 that had a sleeve or jacket around the barrel to which the bayonet lug was attached. The barrel recoiled inside the jacket which surrounded the barrel. If you think about how the long recoil action works, you'll understand why putting a bayonet on the barrel itself and sticking something with it was a Bad Idea. The barrel jacket idea worked, but it was never produced.
A number of US outlaws in the Depression era liked cut-down semiauto shotguns, John Dillinger, Clyde Barrow, and Bonnie Parker among them. They chopped the guns off as short as possible and didn't care how much they battered themselves- they tended not to keep guns very long anyway. rbernie is correct in his advice above about not taking too much off the barrel. And how much you can cut down the stock is limited by the bolt return spring tube that goes about halfway back. Here's a pic of Bonnie funnin' around with Clyde, with a cut-down Remington- http://www.accuracyproject.org/cbe-Barrow,Clyde.html . They liked having their pictures taken.
There were a good many sporting type shotguns used by the military in WW2 as training guns to teach budding aerial gunners (waist and turret gunners on heavy bombers) how to hit moving targets. And there were sporting guns owned by installation recreation activities used for skeet and trap shooting. Those guns were all military owned, and military marked. I'm told there were some Brownings in that number, I don't know if they were WW2 era or not.
Brownings were used by the British in Malaya in the guerrilla war there, which also saw the deployment of the Remington 870 in its first debut as a fighting shotgun not long after its introduction. The Rhodesians also used the Browning in their fight against communist guerrillas. That long-magazine Browning 'jungle gun' mentioned above as being listed at the auction site was prototyped in the 1960s, and at least a few of them saw production. It's an interesting variation, and I find it sort of surprising it wasn't kept in production.
Get your hands on a copy of Swearengen's The world's Fighting Shotguns for pictures of most of the things mentioned above... or see Canfield's book- http://www.brucecanfield.com/uscombatshotguns.html .
hth,
lpl
Last edited:
mxsailor803
New member
lol not to mention the belgium a5's are more valuable and disarable. so good choice
GrandmasterB
New member
Saw a pic of one once and had to save a copy of it -- makes for a sexy setup
impalacustom
New member
Actually, there were "Browning" shotguns made during WWII. Remington, though whatever arrangement, made a version of the Model 11 that was labeled "Browning Three Shot." If I recall, the parts were NOT compatible with an FN produced Browning, only with other Remingtons. When the war ended, production ceased, and FN once again began manufacturing Browning shotguns (i.e. those that were intended to be sold under the Browning name in North America).
So they say at Wisner's anyway...
lpl
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http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/remington_11.htm
snip
During World War II when importation from Belgium of the Browning FN guns became impossible due to Nazi U Boats, Browning had Remington produce the Remington, (with slight cosmetic modifications) & marked it as Browning for sale in the US.
snip
lpl
=====
http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/remington_11.htm
snip
During World War II when importation from Belgium of the Browning FN guns became impossible due to Nazi U Boats, Browning had Remington produce the Remington, (with slight cosmetic modifications) & marked it as Browning for sale in the US.
snip
I'd have to see these real short-barreled, recoil-operated Rem Model 11's and Browning A-5's fire a few rounds, and know what kind of rounds were being fired in them before I'd consider buying one. Otherwise I'd be afraid that the barrel weight would be too light for the gun to cycle ammunition through properly. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying that I'd want to see it operate before I laid any money down.
I've run across a few old 11s with shorter barrels,including the family gun I had that's now a cousin's pride and joy. That one has 23" of barrel behind the Dial A Choke.
I had wondered from time to time why they ran less than 26" even with the deluxe Polychokes they ALL had.I thought it was for balance. Betcha it was to keep weight up and prevent battering more than to keep the COG near the middle of the gun.
I had wondered from time to time why they ran less than 26" even with the deluxe Polychokes they ALL had.I thought it was for balance. Betcha it was to keep weight up and prevent battering more than to keep the COG near the middle of the gun.
I bought a 20" barrel for my A-5 from a friend. it has a browning beed on the end and is a mod choke. (has the two stars on it **) stamped Browning and ST louis on it......The choke seems to be mod when compaired to a 28" barrel I have. Did browning make such a barrel or has it been cut ?
scottm21166
Inactive
it should work fine, I have an original and it isn't good for much else 
well, I can hunt with it just by putting on the longer barrel but it just hides behind the post at the head of my side of the bed
well, I can hunt with it just by putting on the longer barrel but it just hides behind the post at the head of my side of the bedI saw one of these once. It was a handful, even empty.
"Browning Auto-5 shotgun of Belgian manufacture, special version for police use, with factory extended 8-round magazine"
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh41-e.htm
"Browning Auto-5 shotgun of Belgian manufacture, special version for police use, with factory extended 8-round magazine"
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh41-e.htm