Can you Makorov experts give us a 1 to N list (1 is best to N is worst) of who makes the best Makarovs... so when we look for them and price them we can make a good buying decision? Is the most desirable one a German, or a Bulgarian, or a ??? Is a Czech Mak better than a Bulgarian. Or whatever??? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks!
Bringing order to the madness on these Makorovs...
- Thread starter Dogger
- Start date
I can only attest to the fact that I have read where the E.Germans were the nicest and that is what I bought. IMHO it is nice. I had looked at a new commercial Bulgarian by Arsenal and I was not impressed.
For what it's worth.
Happy Shooting
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
For what it's worth.
Happy Shooting
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
If I had it to do all over again I would have gotten an East German rather than the Russian one I have. The basic difference being is that the Russian model has adjustable sights which when they go bad, which mine just has after 5 years, it's not worth the cost($140 + labor) to fix. I guess I'll try bringing the sights back to zero and go the superglue or locktite route.
[This message has been edited by JBP (edited May 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JBP (edited May 01, 2000).]
East german guns have a thicker glossy blueing and better finish.. the russian gun my dad had in .380 the chamber was overcut and the cases would bulge (can you say 'unsupported") maybe this was a fluke, finish was parkered , the gun was made at izmash and the rest overall was well machined, bulgarian guns seem on par with the russian ones, though the stampings aren't as grisp. The only chinese guns I saw had really chintzy 'adjustable" rear sites and red-brown bakelite grip, thin blueings. Still great guns for the money.
I might be able to help a little:
BULGARIAN COMMERCIAL
Probably the most common, are currently imported, and are the lowest priced new offerings. Good quality, good shooters. Can be identified by the word "ARSENAL" on the slide, & I believe will say "MADE IN BULGARIA" somewhere. Will have a number 10 inside of a double circle on the frame. About $129 mail order, $150 - $160 retail.
BULGARIAN UNISSUED MILITARY SURPLUS
Almost as common as the commercial offering, but probably a finite supply. Usually have a better fit & finish than the commercial Bulgarians, but will not have the words "ARSENAL" or "MADE IN BULGARIA" anywhere; the "10" inside a double circle will be on the frame. Usually priced pretty much the same as the commercial pistols.
EAST GERMAN (EG)
These pistols are used East German manufacture military & Secret Police surplus pistols. Generally considered to have the best factory fit & finish, but remember they are used (as opposed to the unissued Bulgarians) and will display varying amounts of finish wear. The fact that they are used probably has something to do with their reputation for having the best trigger pull of all the Maks. (Trigger pull(s) for new pistols usually are a little rough but after a few hundred rounds are much better). Usually priced a little higher than the Bulgarian pistols & varies with condition; figure about $160 or so mail order.
RUSSIAN COMMERCIAL PISTOLS
The fastest way to identify these pistols is by the ADJUSTABLE REAR SIGHT, as they are the only Makarov to have this factory feature. However, it can be considered a weakness due to the unavailability of any replacement parts for the sight, and it would be almost impossible to fit anything else to the slide due to the extensive machining to accomodate this unit. The reason for the unavailability of replacement parts is the same reason for the premium cost of these pistols when compared to a commercial Bulgarian (whose fit & finish are comparable): the "voluntary" import ban. They are not being imported anymore. Figure about $190 - $225 retail.
RUSSIAN MILITARY SURPLUS
These are some of the rarist examples of Makarovs. They can be identified by a TRIANGLE POSITIONED IN A CIRCLE located on the frame, and an absence of any manufacturer ID or "Made in Russia" label, as opposed to the Russian commercial pistol. Generally considered to have a somewhat better fit & finish than the commercial offering, although it has little to do with the asking price which is driven more by the collector market. They range from well used to almost(?) unissued; a price of $200 for one in nice shape is a steal & around paying around $400 or more is not uncommon.
CHINESE SURPLUS MAKAROVS
The rarist of the rare, they usually command a very high price. I don't know to much about these, see the link at the end of this message.
MILTEX MAKAROVS
A whle back, Miltex (who is now either out of business or no longer in the Makarov business) convinced someone in Europe (I'm not sure who) to start building these pistols and offered some option like 2-tone finishes, polished slides, etc. These can still be found at shows & dealers; prices vary according to condition & dealer knowledge.
Also - note that while some examples can be found chambered for .380ACP, the "true" Makarov round is the 9MM MAKAROV, also known as the 9X18.
This is brief. Go over to Makarov.com to get more information, Karl Bloss has a good sized site with an active Message Board along with FAQ & BASIC INFO that have a lot of good information. If you find something that Karl has wriiten that contradicts what is written here - believe Karl! This is how things stand as I understand them.
Hope it helps.
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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work"
Thomas Alva Edison
[This message has been edited by MakAttack (edited May 01, 2000).]
BULGARIAN COMMERCIAL
Probably the most common, are currently imported, and are the lowest priced new offerings. Good quality, good shooters. Can be identified by the word "ARSENAL" on the slide, & I believe will say "MADE IN BULGARIA" somewhere. Will have a number 10 inside of a double circle on the frame. About $129 mail order, $150 - $160 retail.
BULGARIAN UNISSUED MILITARY SURPLUS
Almost as common as the commercial offering, but probably a finite supply. Usually have a better fit & finish than the commercial Bulgarians, but will not have the words "ARSENAL" or "MADE IN BULGARIA" anywhere; the "10" inside a double circle will be on the frame. Usually priced pretty much the same as the commercial pistols.
EAST GERMAN (EG)
These pistols are used East German manufacture military & Secret Police surplus pistols. Generally considered to have the best factory fit & finish, but remember they are used (as opposed to the unissued Bulgarians) and will display varying amounts of finish wear. The fact that they are used probably has something to do with their reputation for having the best trigger pull of all the Maks. (Trigger pull(s) for new pistols usually are a little rough but after a few hundred rounds are much better). Usually priced a little higher than the Bulgarian pistols & varies with condition; figure about $160 or so mail order.
RUSSIAN COMMERCIAL PISTOLS
The fastest way to identify these pistols is by the ADJUSTABLE REAR SIGHT, as they are the only Makarov to have this factory feature. However, it can be considered a weakness due to the unavailability of any replacement parts for the sight, and it would be almost impossible to fit anything else to the slide due to the extensive machining to accomodate this unit. The reason for the unavailability of replacement parts is the same reason for the premium cost of these pistols when compared to a commercial Bulgarian (whose fit & finish are comparable): the "voluntary" import ban. They are not being imported anymore. Figure about $190 - $225 retail.
RUSSIAN MILITARY SURPLUS
These are some of the rarist examples of Makarovs. They can be identified by a TRIANGLE POSITIONED IN A CIRCLE located on the frame, and an absence of any manufacturer ID or "Made in Russia" label, as opposed to the Russian commercial pistol. Generally considered to have a somewhat better fit & finish than the commercial offering, although it has little to do with the asking price which is driven more by the collector market. They range from well used to almost(?) unissued; a price of $200 for one in nice shape is a steal & around paying around $400 or more is not uncommon.
CHINESE SURPLUS MAKAROVS
The rarist of the rare, they usually command a very high price. I don't know to much about these, see the link at the end of this message.
MILTEX MAKAROVS
A whle back, Miltex (who is now either out of business or no longer in the Makarov business) convinced someone in Europe (I'm not sure who) to start building these pistols and offered some option like 2-tone finishes, polished slides, etc. These can still be found at shows & dealers; prices vary according to condition & dealer knowledge.
Also - note that while some examples can be found chambered for .380ACP, the "true" Makarov round is the 9MM MAKAROV, also known as the 9X18.
This is brief. Go over to Makarov.com to get more information, Karl Bloss has a good sized site with an active Message Board along with FAQ & BASIC INFO that have a lot of good information. If you find something that Karl has wriiten that contradicts what is written here - believe Karl! This is how things stand as I understand them.
Hope it helps.
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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work"
Thomas Alva Edison
[This message has been edited by MakAttack (edited May 01, 2000).]
PLASTIC SIG
New member
9x19? is that a standard 9mm we find in most guns chambered in 9mm? like beretta,glock,sig etc?
this may be a silly question. but to someone who has never owned a 9mm this may be very important!
Tim : )
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Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones:::
this may be a silly question. but to someone who has never owned a 9mm this may be very important!
Tim : )
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Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones:::
PLASTIC SIG
New member
oops 9x18 that is !
Thanks again
Tim : )
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Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones:::
Thanks again
Tim : )
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Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones:::
Perhaps a bit off point, not a "Makarov" pistol, in any of it's versions, but worth a look.
The Radom (Polish) P-83 is a double action piece chambered for 9 x 18 cartridge. Two versions available, sights are the difference. The "special" model has drift adjustable sights, front and rear, rear looks something like the Novak sight. Frame is stamped and welded, slide is machined and welded.
The one that I have shoots very well indeed, though the trigger pull is quite heavy. It's not rough, just heavy. Dalvar USA in Henderson, Nevada is the importer. They have a web site, with price quotes on several pistols, and class 3 stuff also, as I recall.
Might be worth a look at 244 plus shipping of $10. Sometimes comes with extra magazine, for a total of 3.
The Radom (Polish) P-83 is a double action piece chambered for 9 x 18 cartridge. Two versions available, sights are the difference. The "special" model has drift adjustable sights, front and rear, rear looks something like the Novak sight. Frame is stamped and welded, slide is machined and welded.
The one that I have shoots very well indeed, though the trigger pull is quite heavy. It's not rough, just heavy. Dalvar USA in Henderson, Nevada is the importer. They have a web site, with price quotes on several pistols, and class 3 stuff also, as I recall.
Might be worth a look at 244 plus shipping of $10. Sometimes comes with extra magazine, for a total of 3.
As an owner of both a E. German and Russian commercial I can attest the finish and overall quality of the E.G. is nicer. They both shoot VERY well, amazing accuracy and dependability. The historical/exotic aura of them adds to the fun. The Makarov cartridge is shorter than a regular 9mm which is a 9X19. the .380 is a 9X17. These three cartridges will NOT interchange with each other's chambers.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
One of these days I am going to have to get me a Mak...
MakAttack,
Way to go Idaho! Not much to add to what you said. I'm very pleased with all the milsurp Bulgies I've handled and fired. New unissued Bulgie milsurp Maks are available from www.jcarmory.com for $147 delivered to your FFL. Get them while you can.
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So many pistols, so little money.
Way to go Idaho! Not much to add to what you said. I'm very pleased with all the milsurp Bulgies I've handled and fired. New unissued Bulgie milsurp Maks are available from www.jcarmory.com for $147 delivered to your FFL. Get them while you can.
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So many pistols, so little money.
Tecolote - thanks for the kind words!
I should have mentioned the Simpson Suhl post unification German that houndawg listed. This edition was produced largely from left over inventory, but had changes made to the mechanicals in the safety that permitted the safety lever to be in the "ON" or "SAFE" position while the slide was retracted, and move forward into battery automatically decocking the pistol (similar to the way the S&W semi-autos work). This is the ONLY variation of Makarov pistol that is able to operate in this manner. All other Makarov pistols (including, I believe, the Miltex versions) lock the slide when the safety is activated, will result in a cocked pistol when the slide is retracted and should never be returned to battery with the safety "ON"!.
Karl Bloss (Makarov.com does offer the "SIMPSON SUHL" upgrade, which includes a modified safety lever & hammer that will fit all Makarov pistols, resulting in the Simpson Suhl type operation.
Anyway, these Simpson Suhl pistols are uncommon and therefore command prices similar to the Russian Military Surplus guns. Fit & finish are reported to be similar to the EG guns.
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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work"
Thomas Alva Edison
[This message has been edited by MakAttack (edited May 02, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by MakAttack (edited May 02, 2000).]
I should have mentioned the Simpson Suhl post unification German that houndawg listed. This edition was produced largely from left over inventory, but had changes made to the mechanicals in the safety that permitted the safety lever to be in the "ON" or "SAFE" position while the slide was retracted, and move forward into battery automatically decocking the pistol (similar to the way the S&W semi-autos work). This is the ONLY variation of Makarov pistol that is able to operate in this manner. All other Makarov pistols (including, I believe, the Miltex versions) lock the slide when the safety is activated, will result in a cocked pistol when the slide is retracted and should never be returned to battery with the safety "ON"!.
Karl Bloss (Makarov.com does offer the "SIMPSON SUHL" upgrade, which includes a modified safety lever & hammer that will fit all Makarov pistols, resulting in the Simpson Suhl type operation.
Anyway, these Simpson Suhl pistols are uncommon and therefore command prices similar to the Russian Military Surplus guns. Fit & finish are reported to be similar to the EG guns.
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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work"
Thomas Alva Edison
[This message has been edited by MakAttack (edited May 02, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by MakAttack (edited May 02, 2000).]
I'm not going to tell you which Mak is best. I'm going to tell you that my Mak is not only accurate, but good looking. It's a Bulgie, Arsenal. I have yet to see another Mak with the finish of the one I have. I have not seen another Bulgarian, East German, Russian, or Chinese, makarov that has the gloss that mine does. I guess, I was just lucky. Best of luck....Cag
Hi, guys,
Please permit me to add a little to what Yanus says.
.380 ACP is also called 9mm Browning Short, 9mm Kurz (German), 9mm Corto (Italian/Spanish) and 9mm Court (French).
There are two rounds designated 9 x 18. These are the 9mm Ultra or 9mm Police, which was chambered in a few pistols like the Walther PP Super, and the 9mm Makarov, the East Bloc service cartridge. It is chambered in the Makarov and some other Eastern European guns.
Then there is the 9 x 19, commonly called the 9mm Parabellum in Europe or the 9mm Luger in this country.
A low power round used in some Browning and Webley blowback models is the 9mm Browning Long.
Then there is the 9mm Largo ("long"), which was the Spanish service cartridge. It is the same as the 9mm Bergman-Bayard, used in Danish Bergman pistols.
We also have the 9mm Steyr, whose most common chambering was in the Steyr-Hahn Models 1911 and 1912.
Then there is the 9mm Mauser, chambered only in some Mauser C96 pistols and a Hungarian SMG. This is not the round used in the "Red 9" Mausers; those were chambered for the 9mm Parabellum.
Jim
Please permit me to add a little to what Yanus says.
.380 ACP is also called 9mm Browning Short, 9mm Kurz (German), 9mm Corto (Italian/Spanish) and 9mm Court (French).
There are two rounds designated 9 x 18. These are the 9mm Ultra or 9mm Police, which was chambered in a few pistols like the Walther PP Super, and the 9mm Makarov, the East Bloc service cartridge. It is chambered in the Makarov and some other Eastern European guns.
Then there is the 9 x 19, commonly called the 9mm Parabellum in Europe or the 9mm Luger in this country.
A low power round used in some Browning and Webley blowback models is the 9mm Browning Long.
Then there is the 9mm Largo ("long"), which was the Spanish service cartridge. It is the same as the 9mm Bergman-Bayard, used in Danish Bergman pistols.
We also have the 9mm Steyr, whose most common chambering was in the Steyr-Hahn Models 1911 and 1912.
Then there is the 9mm Mauser, chambered only in some Mauser C96 pistols and a Hungarian SMG. This is not the round used in the "Red 9" Mausers; those were chambered for the 9mm Parabellum.
Jim
Just to add another question to the Makarov
discussion. What is a good self-defense round (ammo) for the Makarov? And the harder question, WHERE can it be purchased?
I have a military surplus Mak. Accuracy is ok but with the kick that thing has don't expect to put many holes in the bullseye at 25yds.
My Kimber .45 makes me look good (nice neat groups in the Bull at 25 yards), my Mak makes me look like crap!
Well maybe next time at the range things might get better. Every gun is a new learning curve! That's what makes it fun.
discussion. What is a good self-defense round (ammo) for the Makarov? And the harder question, WHERE can it be purchased?
I have a military surplus Mak. Accuracy is ok but with the kick that thing has don't expect to put many holes in the bullseye at 25yds.
My Kimber .45 makes me look good (nice neat groups in the Bull at 25 yards), my Mak makes me look like crap!
Well maybe next time at the range things might get better. Every gun is a new learning curve! That's what makes it fun.
In response to desmond57, Cor-Bon makes an excellent defense load for the Makarov, but you may want to replace the recoil spring with one a little heavier (get one through makarov.com) because the Cor-Bon load is very hot. I would be happy with CCI Blazers (Gold Dot bullet?) but some complain these are inaccurate or otherwise unsuitable (I forget why). The Blazers work perfectly well in my East German Mak. If your Mak kicks, have you replaced the stock grips with Pearce grips? I've never shot my Mak without the grips from Pearce, and the recoil has always been comfortable. Oh, did I say I have an East German Makarov? GREAT GUN! And I only paid $180!! Frank - looking for a new username with mak in it.