Breaking in a Barrel Again (Is it Possible)?

whitefish

New member
A few years ago I picked up an Browning A-Bolt 300 WM. I carefully broke in the barrel with repeated firing and cleaning. I was able to really get the copper fouling down to a minimum. On a recent winter hunt, however, the gun was exposed to alot of moisture (it rained) and I wasn't able to clean the gun immediately. As a result, the barrel rusted abit on the inside and outside. I cleaned the barrel with Hoppes and a bronze brush.

But now when I shoot it, it copper fouls horribly. What took me a few swipes with the cleaning rod takes hours now. I hardly had to use a brush before and now I use it all the time.

My question is whether it would be worth while or even possible to "break in" the barrel again?
 
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I doubt that whoever coined the term Barrel break in ever told anyone what barrel break in does to the barrel, to have it be broken in. I personally consider barrel break in a myth. To get a barrel to it's optimum accuracy potential, the bore must be as smooth as possible, all other things being perfect, like uniformity in land and groove depth, and land and groove bore diameter from chamber to muzzle.
To get a barrel to it's best accuracy potential, lapping is required, which smoothes out tool marks left in the barrel after machining. After lapping, the barrel is as good as it will ever get. No more improvement of that barrel is possible, given a good chamber, good fitting to the action, and a good crown.
I'm still waiting for the guy who coined the term break in to define what that process actually does. My gut feel is that he thought break in makes a barrel shoot better, without any thought of what is actually taking place within the barrel. I might be wrong here, but one thing for sure, he created a needless controversy over a very simply solved issue.
Most factory barrels are not lapped when the rifle is sold. I lap all of those barrels. When I buy an aftermarket barrel like a Hart barrel, it is lapped by Hart before they sell it. I don't lap a barrel that has already been lapped.

Martyn
 
OP; Sorry but no. If the bore ever rusts, it just won't ever be as smooth as it once was. You could lap it to help smooth out the remaining pits the rust caused and then try using something like Eezox®.

SP; I think barrel "breaking in" was our old(back when my .308 NormaMag was a popular cartridge) way to smooth/polish the bore. If you just started shooting a new barrel over and over, it would copper foul for your/it's entire life. But,,If you shot,cleaned,shot,cleaned,shot,cleaned until "broken in", it wouldn't foul near as bad. I suppose we were actually lapping with copper jacket bullets and wire brushes. When the accuracy buffs hit the scene, we learned to lap/polish the barrels instead of the old "breaking in" procedure.
 
The late Gale McMillan says that barrel "break-in" was invented by a barrel-maker, in order to sell more barrels, as a barrel has "X" number of shots available, when it leaves the manufacturer. :)
 
Hum, that seems just as plausible as my WAG. Actually more so considering our free market society. But doesn't/wouldn't lapping remove some metal and thus use up some of the "limited" number of shots available as well?
 
In "lapping" the barrel I used the repeated shot/clean cycle method as described on Shilen Rifles site and others. While they state that they don't believe it is necessary, others have touted this method as absolutely necessary for production barrels. Originally I did this to improve accuracy, but I'm not sure that was the end result. What I definately did see is a massive reduction in copper fouling. Given this, a break in definately does have an impact on removing tool marks etc.

Sorry but no. If the bore ever rusts, it just won't ever be as smooth as it once was. You could lap it to help smooth out the remaining pits the rust caused

I'll try breaking in the barrel again. I agree it won't be as smooth as before, but the amount of cleaning I do now is comparable to the first few shots I put through the barrel. Accuracy has undoubtly been effected, but I haven't noticed a big difference yet.

Dan Lilja has an interesting article on barrel fouling and the impacts of over cleaning:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm
 
doesn't/wouldn't lapping remove some metal and thus use up some of the "limited" number of shots available as well?
I imagine it does but the shots you have left are free of the hideous fouling that can occur in a rough bore and the remaining shots are more accurate.
 
Barrel Lapping

Lapping polishes the bore, with miniscule steel removal. The amount of steel removed is burried down in the noise level, not worth debate, with respect to barrel life.
The thing that polishing the bore does for you is it absolutely reduces copper fouling to near zero. And, it definitely improves accuracy, as ALL of the aftermarket barrel makers lap their barrels; makers like Hart, Shilen, Lilja, Krieger, etc. If lapping did not improve accuracy, those barrel makers would not do it.
And, barrel cleaning after lapping is a breeze, as compared to an unlapped barrel.
There are no negative aspects associated with barrel lapping.

Martyn
 
I don't think the usual shoot and clean break in ritual would help a rusted barrel. I don't know if I would try hand lapping a rusted bore, although Ed Harris described the process when he was writing about milsurps. I might shoot a series of Tubb Final Finish grit bullets and see if that would smooth it out a bit.
The only real cure is a new barrel and more care in the field.

Here is what Krieger has to say about break in (which takes a grueling 13 shots by their procedure.)

With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.

Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this gas and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it; copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Bartlein takes the same tack; you are burnishing the throat of the chamber in a lapped barrel.

Border Barrels says the whole length needs breakin with several shots down a perfectly clean bore, even though lapped.

Maybe if you cut the chamber before rifling the bore like Harry Pope, there would not be any rough edges from the chamber reamer.

Hart does not see a need for break-in shooting and Shilen is soft on it.

As Jeff Cooper said, you will do as you think best.
 
I believe the rust has been completed removed from the barrel, but it has left areas of exposed steel (easily seen in the grooves near the muzzle). The copper is depositing in these areas.

If there was a way to seal or "season" these areas of exposed steel, the fouling would probably be reduced. Not sure if this is what Dan Lijia refers to as a "desirable layer of carbon fouling".
 
Barrel breakin ...

Barrel breakin processes were developed and coined mostly by some in the benchrest shooting crowd. They used their own special process and recipes to smooth the bore and reduce friction to bring a control on standard deviation. THe biggest problem is that barrel breakin procedure tears the hell out of the life of your barrel. That's no big deal for a serious benchrest guy, usually he is rebarreling within 3,000 - 5,000 rounds anyway. Several benchrest guys convinced me that most throat erosion comes from firelapping and barrel breakin steps. I can believe it.

If you were to ask Fred Hart of Hart barrels I believe he would say something like - instead of buying a barrel to do that to why don't you just buy a good barrel.

If I'm buying a used gun - I always ask if there was a barrel breakin done on it. If yes, I will price it like a donor for a custom job - because that is exactly what you have.

Just my thoughts.

Dave
 
THe biggest problem is that barrel breakin procedure tears the hell out of the life of your barrel.

Yup. I followed Krieger's breakin recommendations as above. 13 shots. I'll really miss that off the barrel life.
Which means the Pac-Nor must be a real basket case. I followed their recommendations too. 40 shots. What a killer. Of course by then I had a pretty good 100 yard zero and chronograph readings to put into the ballistics program and compute the come-ups for longer ranges. Shooting that would have had to be done anyhow.

You don't have to break one in any special way, or at all if you don't think it will do any good; but to say it consumes any real part of the service life just isn't so.
 
One thing I notice now is how easy it is to get the copper out - there's just a heck of alot of it.

Before, I had to use a copper solvent to get the last bits out. Now, it wipes right out with Hoppes and maybe ten passes with the bronze brush. It just takes ALOT of patches to get them white instead of blue.

I also notice that if I switch to an ammonia based copper solvent while cleaning, its becomes more difficult to remove the copper and it is not as effective at removing it. It seems to react with the copper creating an oxide (not sure if this is the right term - not a chemist) which then cannot be removed with Hoppes. I have to switch to a brush.

If I just stick with the Hoppes, it all comes out, it just means alot of patches.

Strange :confused:
 
bbl. break-in

Hey Guys:
Just what I think; I tend to agree with Jim. Douglas bbls, and other fine buttoned bbls. I don't think would really benefit from this procedure but I believe in thorough cleaning, if fouled some with J B Paste at times.
If you don't want to have cerebral apoplexy don't ever look through a cut rifled bbl. (or some buttoned) bbls. with a magnifying bore scope!
I don't think cryo- treatment or breaking in has a thing to do with accuracy and I DO NOT want to alter the heat-treatment in any bbl. it's crucial! I think some of these methods do. Barrel makers are very careful people. I,d leave them along - and Leave Harry Pope alone
Harry B.
 
I am pretty much in agreement with the Jim and Harry. There is no way break-in causes damage beyond what normal shooting of the same number of rounds does. Even firelapping, if you do it properly, doesn't pull out much metal. I've had occasion to firelap several military Garand barrels which had not been stress relieved before contouring, as modern barrels from good makers are. This resulted in a bore constriction under the asymmetric portion of the contour between the receiver and lower band, which, in addition to them being difficult to clean, was the reason for the firelapping.

Since I have a throat wear gauge, I was able to do before and after measurements. I also slugged the bores before and after. I found the throats moved forward about half a thousandth. That represents 1/20 of the military's allowable wear range of one hundredth of an inch, or about 150 shots worth of movement. Since there is no heat stress cracking associated with firelapping loads, and since a rough throat, as Tubb describes, can actually be made to shoot well again by polishing it forward after it loses accuracy, I don't feel this counts as real wear. It just means you have a half thousandth longer throat, which is not a big enough difference that you wouldn't see it between two match chambers.

The slugs showed the muzzles to have widened about one ten thousandth of an inch. The breech ends, about an inch forward of the throat came out about two ten thousandths wider than the muzzle. This was still smaller than the half thousandth breech-to-muzzle taper some consider desirable (though that is more for cast bullets shooting than jacketed bullets, which don't seem to care, in my experience).

My conclusion is that as long as you use a good method, such as Marshall Stanton's (Beartooth Bullets) or NECO's, and follow the instructions, firelapping will do no harm. I recommend you stay well clear of the cheapened knock-off of the NECO kit sold by Wheeler, however. Their instructions actually show a drawing of a poorly firelapped bore with the corners of the lands and grooves untouched and claim it is how the finished job should look. A recent Precision Shooting Magazine article described the kit being used on a .22 rimfire rifle and opening the bore up a whopping half a thousandth. That's way too much.

To reduce how easily copper sticks in your rust pits, I would fire a few firelapping rounds to dull the edges of the pits, then use Merrill Martin's method of wrapping a patch or two around the next caliber smaller bore brush (enough for a firm, snug fit in the bore) and loading the outside up with Remington 40X or JB Bore Compound or, my personal favorite, Iosso Bore Cleaner. These are all mild abrasives made of things like diatomaceous earth. They will blacken the patch with sub-optical microscopic metal particles as they polish down the offending surfaces and corners. None of this will remove enough metal to affect barrel life.

As to barrel break-in by alternating the firing of bullets with cleaning, I have always looked at this like stropping a razor blade. The softer material rubbing the harder one will be able to bend and fatigue away wire edges and the like. It is hard to imagine those being a major problem on a button rifled or a forged barrel or any lapped barrel? But break-in procedures have been around for an awfully long time. Back near WWII, even mass production rifle barrels were still cut rifled (AFAIK, and if all the WWII surplus rifling machines are any indication), but not hand lapped, as custom barrel blanks are. These barrels would have benefited most, I should think, from break-in. A broach cut barrel should, too.

The break-in may help burnish reamer marks on the throat, as suggested earlier, but I would use a very fine firelapping compound on a few firelapping rounds if that were my only objective. Or, as one fellow in a PS article was doing, attach stems to jacketed bullets and use them as rotating hand laps to match his throat to his bullet ogive perfectly.
 
Great post UncleNick - thanks alot! I'll look into the firelapping kits you mentioned and the Merrill Martin's method. I have shyed away from using an abrasive for cleaning, but I see as definately warranted in this case.
 
but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this gas and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it; copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Wow, thanks for the info, Jim! That was the first time I think I've ever heard a reasonable explanation for copper build-up, and I never knew about the throat causing copper deposits. So it adds a lot more information to the mysterious break in issue. Well done.
 
"After lapping, the barrel is as good as it will ever get. No more improvement of that barrel is possible..."

How much lapping to what grit?
How many strokes of the lap?

Claiming that "No more improvement of that barrel is possible" is very unlikely to be true.
 
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