Brady questions

First off, I am de facto pro gun because I own and carry them. This post does not question our rights to do so; nor do I. I just want to understand the opposition and I have a few questions:

1 - On the brady site, they cite some "statistics" on gun violence, quoting that 11,000 people died by firearms in the USA in 2004, and listing 5 other anti-gun countries with 2 and 3 digit mortality rates. This seems impossible - how are they coming up with these numbers? Do stats support the idea that the same or more per-capita violence occurs in these countries but that they use knives and bats?

2 - they love extolling the horrors of the "gun show loophole". From what I can find, there really isn't anything stopping a felon or felon-to-be from easily and quickly obtaining a firearm at a show - are they really wrong about that?
It does seem easier to pick up a gun this way than to purchase it on the street.

I know there is good information out there, discuss...
 
In most states, the gunshow loophole isn't a loophole at all, it's the law. Face-to-face sales are not required to go through an FFL if both parties are citizens of the same state in which the transaction occurs and neither party is a prohibited person, by that state's statutes. Purchases made from a retailer (assumed to be an FFL) at the show must have the NICS check completed.

Violations of these conditions are on the books now. There is no loophole. Citizens of the same state can meet anywhere and complete a firearm sale, not just a gunshow. If the buyer in a face-to-face is a disallowed person, the seller may be held liable.

If a FFL/retailer at a a gunshow fails to perform the required checks and keep proper records, the violation is the same as if he were back in his gunshop. Same requirement.

There is no loophole. Brady simply doesn't like the legality of the face-to-face sale.
 
Brady Questions...

The usual gag with "gun deaths" by the Brady and other anti-gun groups is this: They count all deaths by firearm as a 'gun death'; that is, murders, self-defense, suicides, accidental (unintentional?), and law enforcement use.

However, when discussing 'gun deaths' in places with 'sensible' - what I would generously refer to as 'jackbooted thug totalitarian' - gun control, only those uses of firearms in a non-military setting are mentioned. So the militias killing people by the carload in Darfur don't count, but gang wars in Los Angeles do.

What these statistics never mention is
* Actual murder rate for either U. S. or gun-controlled foreign area (it turns out the overall murder rate in the U. S. is relatively low),
* Actual number of murders by other means,
* Numbers of self-defense uses in U. S. that prevented an illegal homicide or attack or
* Numbers of unarmed by law people killed by illegally armed combatants in sectarian or religious warfare.

Something you didn't ask but may notice or be challenged about is the 'children gun death rate'. The Brady numbers regular include people of up to 25 years of age involved in gang activity in the 'child gun death rate'. But the accompanying picture is always of a cute little three or four year old.

The 'loophole' of being able sell one's own property without first obtaining permission from the government has been covered. I'll leave it - other than to say automobiles kill far more people than firearms in any context and any give time frame. But there are no background checks or waiting periods to purchase an automobile.
 
It's not right.
First and foremost, guns don't murder anybody.
Second, unless you are a member of the ant-gun crowd, you should be aware of the "Arm Citizen" section in the NRA Magazines.
Next, reread Archies post on the skewed figures by the anti-gun fools.

I have to wonder why you are reading the anti-gun propaganda in the first place.:barf::barf:

I would suggest that you join the NRA and start reading some good articles instead of wasting your time on anti web sights, and asking these sorts of questions on a pro-gun forum.

I have a question for you: who are you voting for, McCain or Obama??;)

Eric
 
"I would suggest that you join the NRA and start reading some good articles instead of wasting your time on anti web sights, and asking these sorts of questions on a pro-gun forum."

Joining the NRA is always a good idea, but there's also nothing wrong with knowing what the enemy is up to. In fact, we shooters would be crazy not to follow the Brady Bunch very carefully, and try to anticipate their moves.

Tim
 
I have to wonder why you are reading the anti-gun propaganda in the first place.

I usually take a gander at the Brady sight every so often myself.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer....

As a matter of fact, I joined the NRA due to Brady's blog on "high power military style sniper rifles" and how dangerous they were. What she was really ranting at was common deer rifles. I joined the NRA that very day.
 
Last edited:
I agree with you Tim, but the sound of this topic sounds a little more like baiting to me.
I apologize to Bert if I'm wrong, but questioning the members of this forum about typical gun nut propaganda kind of smells.
Looking at the anti's website is good politics, but I just don't trust the tone of the question.
Again, with apology if I am wrong, it just comes across as baiting.

Eric
 
I am not a good debater, so I always read threads like this so I can have arguments ready for my encounters with gun-haters. I think the OP's motives were similar.

Tim
 
I'm sorry if it looks like baiting but as stated above, know your enemy. It's very small minded to take a stance and defend it blindly (be it anti gun, pro gun, or anything else), therefore I like to see what the people I disagree with have to say every now and then. Knowing arguments from both sides will strengthen your own arguments. The brady campaign would take your gun collection and your carry rights away from you in a new york minute if they could. Does it not behoove us to find out how, or even why, they want this? I go through my opponents' arguments and propaganda as frequently as possible both in political arenas such as this and in personal business scenarios because there's no better way to destroy someone in an argument than to already know what they have to say and how to undermine it.

Maybe the answer to my original question is simply that their facts are drawn from such carefully selected statistics that while technically true, they are still useless. Those numbers just popped out as so ridiculous that I hoped someone could / would explain exactly how they were collected, or even catagorize it as straight up manufactured data.

edit: Obama wouldn't get a vote from me if voting was mandatory and he ran uncontested - that should clarify things.
 
Last edited:
Good reasoning Bert, and a good post.
Sorry if I offended you in any way, and your questions, when put in the context for your last statement make much sense.

Eric
 
Kreyzhorse posted:

As a matter of fact, I joined the NRA due to Brady's blog on "high power military style sniper rifles" and how dangerous they were. What she was really ranting at was common deer rifles. I joined the NRA that very day.


But Sarah (pass me a Camel, would ya?) Brady had no compunction about buying a high powered deer rifle for her son. We think she gifted it, so it wasn't a straw purchase. But who's to say that he didn't reimburse her at a later date? Hmmmm?
 
We think she gifted it, so it wasn't a straw purchase.

A straw purchase of a high powered military sniper like rifle!!!!!!!!! We must close the Sarah Brady Loop Hole. Smoke 'em if you got 'em kids.
 
Archie and Bud Helms covered it pretty well

The Brady "bunch" has been using misleading figures for many years, picking and choosing what categories to include or exclude to make their arguments seem as powerful as they can.

Quite a few years back a "defector" from the Brady org wrote an interesting piece on how they skewed their numbers. As Archie said, they count all gun deaths as deaths by handguns. Deaths involving being shot by rifles and shotguns are counted as handgun deaths. Gang vs gang killings, suicides, murders, accidents (which is a very small number when legitimate figures are used), and everyone the police shoot who dies are all rolled up together and called "handgun deaths". Sometimes they actually call them "gun deaths" but usually they call them handgun deaths.

And the "death of a child due to a handgun" numbers, as stated, they count everyone under 25 as a "child", and include all guns as "handguns". I can't say for sure they do, but I wouldn't put it past them to include all our military personell under 25 killed in action as a "death of a child due to a handgun" as well.

There is an easy way to tell when the Bradys are lying to you, their lips are moving!

Murder rates around the world are higher in many places that in the USA. Murder with guns (outside of killings done by groups like military units, "militias" and warlords thugs) are generallly lower, Murders with knives and clubs etc. are much higher than in the US.

Cultural bias also counts towards distorting the statistics from other countries. Britian recently "revised" their system of counting crimes, and (surprise) significantly "reduced" their murder statistics. In Japan, incidences of a man going amok and killing his family than himself (with a knife or sword) were so common that until very recently they were not even included in the national crime statistics! In some cultures family members (mostly women) are killed for dishonoring their families, or for some religious transgression, and these are not considered "crimes" in their statistics. These are just a few examples, to show that the data from other nations is already skewed, and then the Bradys pick and choose what is most advantageous for them from this.

They lie. They have the unshakeable faith of true believers because they know that their views are what is best for all of us, no matter what we may believe for ourselves. They are right and we are not, and to them that justifies any lie or distortion of the truth as long as it aids their cause.

I don't find them honest but misguided, I find them reprehensible!
 
Eric M.- no offense taken.

So, we have a well moneyed fundamentalist group with faith (if nothing else) behind their cause. If history is any gauge, they will never quit. It seems easy to debunk on a personal level but people as a community love strong looking stats like these; I can almost see how they get their followers.

Thanks for the info everyone.
 
Yes, There Are Loopholes..

There are loopholes. What you mention is one: No checks mean no checks. Forget that "the seller may be held responsible", that is not the same deterrent as a NIC check, guns pass through many hands often on the way to a crime, and everyone knows that records and responsibility are diffuse and not easily located in one transaction. It is little in the way of deterrence and does not, in any case, stop the sale.

As well, with the states that have no limit on the number of guns a non-licensed seller ("private person") can sell, the gun show trade can produce numbers that are significant of record-less sales with no check for the buyer being criminal, or the ability to reasonably suspect that there are plans to sell the same guns criminally. It's blind.

This is not the only way illegal guns become illegal but it is a significant contributor according to law enforcement personnel.

Other ways have to do with unscrupulous FFL dealers, guns that are stolen from legal owners or lost by legal owners. The last two are not significant to numbers of illegal guns that have been traced, and it is thought by extrapolation, that they are not generally the main contributor to illegal guns involved in crime.

The flow of guns to criminals is the area of gun restriction/enforcement that make your second question moot: violence in America and it's relationship to other countries and to legal gun owners here.

We who are responsible and legal with guns, are not the ones committing the crimes, yet because so much violent crime does involve handguns it is an easy transference to blame the instrument (the gun) owners, rather than the person committing the crime. But until the flow of guns to criminals is stemmed, this will be the future case too.

By taking a stance that any restrictions on guns or gun sales are on attack on the 2nd Amendment, many on the "Gun-right" and the NRA have stood in the way of reasonable restrictions being enacted throughout many states or federally. Thus, the good of their support of an individual right is mixed by inclusion of an "either-or" stance on all questions of gun topics.

The reason why Heller is of real value is that it will eventually align the laws generally with what the vast majority of the American people now believe (70% from recent polls): an individual has a right to own and use guns, but that ownership and use should be restricted, as are all other rights. Legal test-cases of these restrictions will abound and eventually define what is essential to 2nd A. protection, and what is permissible; these decisions will eventually lead to a more uniform, rational gun policy throughout the states. It is now overly-restrictive in some locales, and lacking in safeguards in others - while still others have a rationale mix of freedom with responsibility.
In other words, both extremes will eventually lose and the vast, reasoned middle will win.

[If you want to study the topics above more, I would suggest staying with sources other than the "far left" (some anti-gun groups) or the right (this forum is not objective on these subjects for example, - though Firing Line is very good in other ways) - or the NRA, etc. Pick from general library holdings or internet search engine findings, various studies of these topics, academic, or think-tank, also include law-enforcement and Justice Dept, FBI etc., as well as published records, historical or otherwise. A broad read, will give you less of the religiosity that infuses the extremes and the obsessiveness of a white/black, believer/sinner mentality. You want facts and rational analysis so you can form your own intelligent assessment.]

Lastly, the point that America has more violence than other countries is generally true, for a complex of reasons. But fewer guns in the hands of criminals - though that will take many years - is now possible, and will help to make the violence from criminal gun use less of a contributor to over all violent crime levels. (All violent crime is, by the way, decreasing - and is now as low as levels not seen since the early 60s. And the broad measures of crime over many, many years extending back to the 19th Cent. always move in a marked downward direction.)
 
Last edited:
The number of guns sold to criminals at gun shows may not be as significant as it's made out to be. This study

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/sospi91.pdf

is a survey of state prison inmates made in 1991. It's very interesting. Anyway, their numbers suggest that criminals got their guns these ways:

28% Black market
9% Theft
27% Retail sales
31% Family and friends
5% Other

My guess is that gun show sales show up as "other".

Tim
 
Back
Top