Boyd's OODA cycle question

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Doggieman

New member
I read the pdf link to an essay on Boyd's OODA cycle and it got me thinking.

Obviously the instigator of a series of actions almost always starts "inside" the reactor's "time cycle."

That is to say, the robber is always going to, at least initially, have the advantage over the robbee in a robbery. He's probably done it before, he is commencing the series of actions, and he knows what kind of outcome he is looking for. Whereas the robbee starts out with his mind on other things, probably has never been robbed before, is reacting to the robber's actions, and has no definite outcome in mind other than hoping he doesn't die.

Couple this with the fact that most middle-class folk don't have much training in being attacked/robbed. Even those who do have SOME, probably don't have enough to suddenly shift the tables in their favor against a seasoned foe.

This all seems to me to say that ANY TIME you find yourself reacting to a situation, you are behind and will STAY behind in the time-cycle; and if the situation culminates in a final win/lose outcome, you will almost surely lose. That could mean being robbed, raped, killed, whatever "lose" may mean in that situation.

To say it more clearly, once you find yourself being acted upon, you have already lost. Therefore, it is not enough to train yourself to do [whatever] in any situation that might crop up. You need to train yourself to either:

1) avoid those situations completely or
2) predict those situations far enough in advance to be able to initiate a counter to them before they begin to happen or
3) train SO THOROUGHLY that you are able to get inside the aggressor's time-cycle after the situation has already been initiated.

This last option might be good for a cop or a soldier, but not the average joe who has to hold down a non-combat job, family, etc. Too little time in the average week.
 
I have been studying the OODA loop, reading some articles, and thinking through the implications lately as well. I think you are on the right track, and it is a sobering track. Most people spend all their time on the A part of the loop--standing and practicing drawing and shooting fast. The problem I see with that is that, as you have said, by the time the incident progresses there you are a loooonnnng ways behind the curve--probably too far behind, unless 1) the criminal makes serious mistakes or 2) you are extraordinarily trained or 3) you get real lucky. The A part of the loop unfortunately comes last and by the time the incident has progressed that far, everything that came first is coming at you like an avalanche and you are in deep trouble. So what to do? I think the first thing to do is acknowledge that this is the situation, that we will always be reacting way late, and base everything that comes after on that knowledge. What is the AA motto--something like you can't get help until you admit there is a problem! There is a problem! Second, your ideas about situational awareness and avoiding possible problems (thus starting at the head of the OODA loop instead of the end) are key, I think. Here is another excellent and intelligent discussion on the problem by some guys who have obviously thought through these things alot further than most of us: http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201

There is another interesting thread, with some of the same guys who contributed to the above discussion, (unfortunately not quite as intelligent due to the original poster's continued assertions that he is superman who can read minds, foretell the future and always be prepared for anything that could possibly happen--but the responses contain some good nuggets in them) in the Glock Talk Forum under the thread entitled "How Fast Is Fast Enough? (I am not putting the link in because Glock Talk just had a major forum upgrade and I don't think the links would work at this point).
 
Doggie,

I agree with your summary points... unfortunately, the first option isn't always there. In The Warrior Expert Theory, the idea is to change the "Decide" to a "Know" through recognition. As you note in your point #3, if we expose ourselves to what we expect to find during training, we raise our awareness, which makes it possible to recognize situations instead of "figuring them out"... thus speeding up the trained response.

As for your second point, we say this:

"The Athletic Ability to draw fast and shoot straight is not nearly as important as the ability to recognize an attacks as early as possible and respond appropriately and efficiently using the environment, training and tools available."

-RJP
 
I'm just wondering

how much training is enough to be able to get inside the perp's time cycle once he has begun the interaction? Obviously it depends on the specific circumstances of each interaction, but I mean in general. Seems like it would be an awful lot.
 
OODA Loops and Action vs. Reaction are simply explanatory tools used to try to explain how events unfold. They are not fighting tools or tactics.

You cannot get inside somebody's OODA Loop. That is simply an ethereal construct used for explanation. It was used to explain air fighting tactics. In those tactics, the fights really only had a limited number of possible options with which to fight. This does not necessarily translate direction to self defense strategy.

If the opposition has the drop on you and you have now been doomed because your OODA loop is a cycle behind that of the bad guy and you think you are doomed, then you have already lost.

People beat OODA loops very frequently. Reaction beats action very frequently. If this was not true, then defensive tackles would never catch runningbacks, boxers would never parry incoming blow. Grasshopper would always be able to snatch the pebbles from Master's hand.

As I learned from the folks at Rangemaster, you must make the bad guy respond to you, get him to reset his OODA loop, and that will make you victorious. Why? Because action will beat reaction, EVERY TIME, I was taught. This is very naive insight. If you are coming up with a way to get inside the bad guy's OODA Loop to make him respond to you, that means you are ALREADY in response mode and behind the curve, right? So by OODA LOOP and Action Reaction theory, you loose. For the life of me, I never understood how they came up with the idea that you call the attackee's response to an attacker to be an Action instead of a Reaction, but they did and since Action beats reaction the Attackee would be victorious. Hogwash. They Attackee can be victorious, but not because of some little interesting explanatory theory they folks are trying to meld into a battle technique.

While some folks may not think very well or very quickly, OOD part of OODA is a VERY FAST process compared to whatever action taken most of the time. The key is having an action that operates faster than the action for which it is being done in response.

OODA Loops and Action Reaction theory only works if both sides are working off of equal parameters. This usually is not the case.

For example, you have two cars on the drag strip for a race. Both drivers are to respond to the start lights. Driver A responds a quarter second before Driver B. Does that mean Driver A will win? Not in the least. It just means he has the start advantage. The action being undertaking takes place over a few seconds. Driver B may be able to work his vehicle more efficiently than Driver A and hence win. Driver B's vehicle is potentially faster than Driver A's vehicle, hence wins.

Change this over to self defense. How do martial arts defensive moves work? Are they able to beat action with reaction? Sure enough. The theory says that is impossible because we know that Action beats Reaction. In martial arts, the reaction moves are usually not comparable to the action moves in that they tend to be shorter and quicker movements that allow for making up the difference in the time lost in response. They are done to accomplish a different task as well. Hence, the reaction moves are not equal to the action moves in the amount of time and or distance required.

So sure enough, Action only beats reaction if you are talking about start time. It means absolutely nothing if you are talking about who is victorious at the end of the action cycle. I think a lot of people, including many instructors, believe that "action beats reaction" refers to who is the winner and that is just plain naive and if being taught by defensive instructors in that manner, potentially catastrophic because it shows a clear lack of understanding of the fight situation about which they are supposed to be teaching. In fact, challenge them. Have them stand at arms' length from you and challenge them to prove the point by having them snatch the pebble from your hand. That is the Action portion of the OODA loop and you have already given them the first Os (observe and orient) and the only Decision they have to make is when to start their Action. They won't beat you, chances are, because their action will take so much longer than your reaction.

Theory is heuristically interesting, but does not always reflect reality.
 
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Hence the importance of mind-set - Cooper's color code and all the rest.

Hence the importance of mind-set - Cooper's color code and all the rest.

FREX many robberies involve someone who has taken a drug of choice for the false courage to engage in risky behavior and so mood altering leads to hehavior altering in ways that might degrade (or in some cases enhance) performance - but mostly it's mindset - in the ultimate test remember the lessons of the Onion Field and all the rest - win lose or draw.

Further there is a false dichotomy in which the reaction of drawing under the gun is taken as the inevitable and inevitably losing move. In fact getting off the mark is often an effective reaction. White is not invincible in chess either.
 
Great discussion.

I'll add that you should train for the best and the worse case scenarios. Best being able to get inside a loop or disrupt a loop. Worse being unable to.

There's waaaay too little worse case scenario training going on.

My advice? Get exposed, train to failure, test what you can in FOF, share, and leave the range-centric egos behind.
 
I think there should be more training on the very first "O" aspect of OODA. Observation. Seems to me that if you're able to observe and predict attacks before they even start, then you will be able to initiate the Boyd cycle and thereby (usually) win.

Seems that the key to winning is initiation. That is, the best defense is a good offense. If you are the one starting the cycles then you are most likely going to win, whereas if the cycles are begun by an aggressor, you'll lose. Slightly oversimplified, but I think you'll find that 4 out of 5 times this is true.

Action wins, reaction loses.
 
In my general experience:

Anticipation is important.
Not letting the other guy get closer than 10-12 yards is important.
Knowing when to say; 'Stop!' is important.
Holding up your support arm while saying; 'Keep your distance!' is important.

So is knowing how to pick and choose your fights. Some are worth getting into, and some aren't.

(And, like most forum members, I'm not even going to get into the pros or cons of being the first one to draw and fire; but, sometimes, it is necessary to be first!) :rolleyes:
 
:rolleyes: Hey, don't blame me if you're not paying attention. I've found it to be useful and important to know exactly when to extend your support arm toward a suspect and say, in a loud clear voice, 'Stop!' 'I'm afraid of you.' 'Do not come any closer!' ;)
 
Don't forget "locational context."

10-12 yards may be close in the country.

There may be a dozen people between you in the city.

---

And folks aren't always as aware as tuned in as they like to think, despite their best intentions. We've all had our moments of distraction...
 
To say it more clearly, once you find yourself being acted upon, you have already lost.
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I disagree. I presume that "acted upon" includes the initial contact, which is probably verbal (got a light?). Not everyone walks around in condition yellow all the time. Nor can you predict which person in a populated area may be the one to approach you.

I think there should be more training on the very first "O" aspect of OODA. Observation. Seems to me that if you're able to observe and predict attacks before they even start, then you will be able to initiate the Boyd cycle and thereby (usually) win.
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I'll agree here. Being observant and noticing anything "out of place" or something that makes you uneasy is your first warning sign. Being able to plan ahead, even slightly, gives you a big advantage.

Just like those of us who may not be always alert, an unexpected reaction from the victim causes the perpetrator to have to "re-calculate" his next move. For instance, approaching someone in a convenince store parking lot with "got a light?", most perps likely expect the person to turn to face them, look & evaluate them before responding Yes or No. But if that person takes a side-step or two and suddenly blades their body towards them, they now have to react to an unexpected development (this guy looks trained to defend himself). Likewise, suddenly turning around and shouting "Get away from me, NOW!" is not the "polite" reaction they expect from a wolf's prey.

I don't know that we need to practice "worst case scenarios" as 3(or more)-on-one scenarios get dull pretty fast.

I'd rather know what kinds of approaches are used by street thugs and what their latest tactics are. I'd also like to know what signs they may exhibit before "going off" on a violence-first robbery (i.e. no warning beat-down attacks).
 
Great thread! Tuller drill, shows that a person 7 yards away can be on you in 1.5 seconds. That's not a lot of time to decide then draw especially from a ccw. Even if very practiced with your draw there has to be some anticipation if we intend to stop the bg before he gets to you. There will probably be some hand to hand to keep the bg off till you can clear the holster. Training for these scenarios is very important. Much more important than being able to hit a paper target at 25 yds.
 
I wasn't so much referring to initial probing verbal contact.

I was referring to the initial committed physical aggression by the attacker -- the point at which any normal untrained or lightly trained person would suddenly realize that he/she is under attack -- whether it's him jumping out of the bushes toward you, or throwing the first punch, or sticking a gun through your window while you're sitting in your car, or pulling a gun when you're writing him a ticket, or whatever.

Average people (and even some trained police officers) do not realize that they're under attack until the actual physical attack has commenced, sometimes only afterward.

I agree that if the perp is simply "feeling you out," you can somewhat easily get inside his time cycle by.. guess what.. being the initiator! By taking the initiative, whether it's by yelling, or pulling a gun from your pocket, or doing something else that he's not expecting, you make him into the reactor. Most perps will leave when they know they've even temporarily lost the initiative.

BUT that would require you to be up on your "O" -- Observation -- skills.

Once his actual physical attack is underway... unless you're well-trained or just lucky, he's almost surely gotcha!
 
for example

(sorry but I'm totally enamored with the OODA cycle stuff, it's making me see aggressive interactions in a whole new light)..

for example..

You're walking your dog just after sunset on a street in a mid-size town. You see a guy slouched against a building. As you approach, he moves toward you and asks you for change. You decline politely, but he blocks your way and starts talking loudly to you. You look at him for a moment, appraising whether you're going to need to defend yourself. Suddenly you hear footsteps behind you. You turn around and start to put your hands up but a tire iron comes down on your head. The next think you know you wake up your wallet is gone and your head throbs like a mofo.

Ok?

Your first OODA cycle started when you saw the guy. You (O1) saw him, (O2) focused on him and looked at him closer, (D) decided to keep walking and (A) kept walking.

...Several other cycles in there... I'll skip em, I'm sure you can do those since they are important to this example..

Final OODA cycle, the cycle of the ACTUAL ATTACK. You (O1) hear footsteps, you (O2) turn to see who's there and see a guy, then (D) decide to put your hands up defensively and (A) start to do so. Sadly, too late.

This last (determinative) OODA cycle happens in less than a second, PLUS you're not especially trained in hand to hand combat with a tire iron. There's no way you can win that one.

-------- NOW ----------

Second example.

Instead of walking with your head down, you're looking around. You're in "condition yellow" or orange let's say. You see two guys off in the distance by a building talking. They look toward you, then one guy slouches against the building and the other one walks quickly across the street. You continue walking but now are aware of the other man who seems to be loitering across the street. You, still 50 yards away, cross the street and actually head toward the second guy with your hand on your CCW piece. He is immediately tense, turns around and heads the other direction. You leave the area and get home safely.

Since your initial O1, observation, was heightened, and trained for suspicious behavior, you were able to (O2) orient yourself to the potential attacker, (D) decide what would be the best action to take and (A) INITIATE the next cycle by putting your hand on your weapon and acting in a manner that they was not expecting. You didn't even have to draw (in this case) because your actions were such that, many seconds beforehand, you "got inside" that specific OODA loop of the muggers and began to inititate the OODA loops. Again, most perps will cut and run if even one of their OODA loops gets "penetrated" like this. That is, once they lose the initiative.

----

One thing I like about the OODA loop over the color-coding system is color coding only addresses the first "O".. it's great and necessary, but I love the idea of a person becoming the initiator of OODA loops and it makes conflicts much more clear to me. Sure it's just a model and simplification of reality but it's a really good model.

They say Robert Greene, author of 48 Laws of Power, 33 Rules? of War, etc is a fan of Boyd.
 
Hey, don't blame me if you're not paying attention. I've found it to be useful and important to know exactly when to extend your support arm toward a suspect and say, in a loud clear voice, 'Stop!' 'I'm afraid of you.' 'Do not come any closer!'
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Got it. You are one of those condition yellow 100% of the time people who never waivers who go around regularly challenging any stranger in a loud clear voice who enters your 10-12 yard safety perimeter sphere distance. I bet you are a hoot to watch walk down a public street or in a parking lot.

Sorry, don't buy it. I have met too many people with supposed total situational awareness who failed to comprehend what was going on around them all of the time as they claimed. Two of my favorites were Tom Givens and Dane Burns who taught a defense class I took from them. I learned that their situational awareness declined drastically when they were monologuing about their exploits (in the case of Burns) or about self defense in general even though both preached about how there is a need to be in conditional yellow all the time.

The fact remians that bad guys often use ambush tactics, trojan horse tactics, etc. that allow them to get close before starting their attacks.

I am sure you have some sort of justification for it, but I don't find it advantageous to announce in a loud and clear voice that I am afraid. That isn't the sort of self confident approach that would help a potential attacker decide not to press an attack.
 
:eek: Well, excuse me if I've rattled your cage and inadvertently challenged your perception of the universe!

Whatever self-defense courses you've taken, you obviously haven't read any current NRA literature, nor completed any of the association's self-defense courses. (Which I'm certified to teach.)

You better believe I'm alert; and, without going into detail on the internet, I've been very well served on several different occasions by my extraordinary wit. I don't look out for predators - Instead, I think like one!

Rather than reject, offhand, what other instructors have to offer you it might be a better idea for you to learn how to let go of some of your ego and genuinely pay attention for a change.

Who knows? You might actually learn something. ;)

Don't forget "locational context." 10-12 yards may be close in the country. There may be a dozen people between you in the city.
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In certain cities in either Asia or South America, you may have a point; but, here in the United States, if you've got a dozen people between you and a potential attacker, then, the only thing you might be in danger of is assassination.

In my experience, the most likely mistake many victims make is to wait too long before attempting to take defensive action.
 
do you mind

hey, I know that nearly 100% of all threads here degenerate into pissing contests but is there any way we can get back on topic?

Thx! :D
 
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