Boy shot thru front door, looking for info on pre fragmented "saftey ammo"

H

HKMark23

New member
Has anyone ever done any testing on or seen any real world shootings with "saftey ammo".
i.e. Glasser, BeeSafe, Shotshells, etc

A friend of mine lives in a condo and is quite concerned about penetration into adjoining units. This is following a shooting here about 3 weeks ago where a man shot and cripled a young boy while defending himself and wife.
Someone was banging on his door around 2am, he sent his wife to a back bedroom with a phone, grabbed his .357 and went to look out the peephole to try and see what was up. The guy was now kicking at the door, so he yelled that he was armed & the police were on the way.
He said he started to turn and head to the back room where his wife was with the intention of putting as many doors between him and the BG as possable. About this time the BG kicked the door open, the HO turned and fired two unaimed shots across his chest as the BG rushed him. One shot hit the BG in the chest, the second was appairently a grazing hit and it conitnued out the open door.
Each units front door faced the adjacent units door in a sort of enclave type area, the grazing shot went thru their neighbors door stiking an 11yo boy in the throat (he had been looking thru his own peephole). The bullet hit and severed his spine, so he will be on a ventalator and paralized for life. The BG almost blead to death but lived (how ironic), he had a baseball bat and a S&W 9mm in his belt.
The condo's all looked the same and he picked the wrong one while looking to settle a dope deal where he thought he got "screwed".
This incident has made alot of shooters around here think about there choice of loads for home defense, and their tactics. I personaly use a 12 gauge with birdshot backed up by a USP45.
But some people like my friend only have one gun (s&w 38spl) and dont plan on buying any more.
I'd be interested in any info anyone has on testing or actual experiance with any of this stuff, please include brand, gun type, and caliber.
Thanks, and have a safe new year!
 
Tangential suggestion: recommend that the boy & folks sue the bad guy for wilfully putting your friend's life in danger, forcing him to exercise deadly force within a high-population area with obvious potential consequences.
 
That's pretty rough. Not a lot more or less anyone could have done there.

I have had very poor results with Glasers in .38 and .44 Mag.

Mag-Safe may be much better.

Giz
 
Shooting wet phone books and gallon jugs of water aren't very scientific. In the real world of wounded and dead, the Glaser does fine and offers the LEAST penetration through non-flesh objects. Mag-Safe's use larger fragments, thus MORE penetration. In a highly dense area of population I'd sure use Glaser's. I've had some actual shootings with them and seem my share of x-rays where a Glaser was used and the results are not pretty. The olde and worn cliches about not working on folks with leather coats etc, is pure nonsense and an urban legend. I had a shooting where a kid took a .380 Glaser in the butt and lost an entire cheek. Almost bled to death.
Use the LARGEST caliber you can like a .44 or .45 with a Glaser. Similar to a hit from a .410 type shotgun. Also Glaser's have limited recoil.
I did some development work on the BeeSafe slugs out there and they are also darned good, if you get the right ones. I use Glaser's in my S&W Model 625 with a 3 inch bbl in .45 ACP for home work.
 
If I lived in an apartment I would consider a short barrel .410 pump using bird shot. I would be real paranoid about over penetration.
 
Gizmo, what is the nature of your poor results with Glasers? I use them for house loads in my Model 66 (actually +P .38 "blues"), Model 36 ( standard .38 "silver") and 629 (.44 mag "blue"). I've never done a real test for accuracy or anything else on them.
 
ckurts,

The problem I had with the .38 loads was that of POI and POA being about a foot off at 7 yards.

The .44 Mag loads went through the paper sideways at 7 yards. Once I saw that I shelved the whole idea. Oh yeah, the muzzle blast was huge.

Giz



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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
 
I remember reading about a brand of prefragmented loads called Thunder Zaps a few years ago.They were supposed to be pretty good,but I don't know if they're around anymore.
 
In a similar vein, I am wondering about Remington Disintegrator. Are these only for target shooting situations or could these be used for self defense as well? In short: What's the point? (No puns intended ;) )
 
I have a Remington 1100 20 ga. loaded with birdshot in the bedroom right now. We just moved in and I couldn't find a box of slugs. I fully intended to switch to slugs as soon as I found them, but now I'm not so sure. It's a townhouse apartment occupied on both sides, and I'd hate to be in that situation. Thanks for the heads up.
 
First of all, the boy wouldn't have been shot if the bad guy didn't create the situation. It is the bad guy's fault. Of couse he will likely go to prison and won't be sued because they are not likely to get much out of him. The chance of a bystander getting shot through a wall is extremely slim. Even in the situation you presented, the risk of the homeowner being harmed was far greater than a bystander being harmed; the fact that it happened is very coincidental. For something like this to happen, a shot must mis the invader, penetrate the wall or another obstacle, and by chance still hit someone. Even if it does, velocity and energy could be reduced quite a bit. All of this together makes such things very unlikely. Do I think I should not use a firearm in self defense because it is possible for something like this to happen? NO. Do I think the issue should be addressed, YES.

Glasers and such are extremely expensive. Perhaps this is the reason they are not seen in many law enforcement situations, but I don't know for sure. Perhaps someone can give a reason for this if they are so wonderful. The "stopping power" claims for them is very impressive. But I haven't seen a lot of information on them. Just remember, a miss with a glaser could potentially also miss obstructions and go through and open window or door and still strike a bystander, but again, extremely unlikely.

I have pondered all of this from time to time and at one time it seemed like a shot gun would be the best choice as many claim, but I have found that even the shorter barreled ones (legal lengths of course) were difficult to manuver in my house. In my personal opinion, those "shot shells" made in standard pistol calibers lack sufficient "stopping power", or whatever one wishes to call it ( I am not refering to Glasers or any other "prefragmented bullet"). I simply do not know how dependable a Glaser is. I'm sure it is worth looking into.

The moral of the story: Can a bystander be shot in a defensive situation? YES. While I don't have any real statistics to back it up, the chance of someone being shot while sitting in his apartment by a bullet that has penetrated a wall because a neighbor fired and missed in a defensive situation is probably about as likely as getting struck by lightning. People are struck by lightning occasionally and chances of that happening are better than winning the lottery.

[Edited to remove material available in initial post]

[This message has been edited by Mal H (edited July 02, 2000).]
 
Bad news is even with the Glaser or something like it the kid would still have been hit and injured. Glasers penetrate just dandy through wood and other hard objects. Can't think of much that won't go through the avg apartment door unless it's something like a beanbag round from a shotgun.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda? If you live in an apt, not much you can do to keep bullets inside it once you fire them.

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http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
 
Mag-Safe has two or more loads per caliber of various weights and velocities. The Mag-Safe SWAT loads are advertised as breaking up in sheetrock. I've never tested them but I think I just might sometime soon.
 
I`m affraid Broken Arrow has a point. Even though the round that struck the child did hit the BG on it`s way,a grazing hit with a Glaser or Magsafe may have done the same thing. A grazing hit with 12ga. birdshot would have sent half the charge through the door accross ther hall and the boy would probably be dead. I`ve lived in apartments whos doors you could easily punch your fist through,what bullet won`t penetrate that? Although it`s easy to critique someones reactions to such a situation after the fact I think the solution here involves better shot placement not ammo. The "unaimed" shots could just as easily have missed the BG entirely in which case Albert Schweitzer edition super duper safety bullets wouldn`t have helped the boy any. If however instead if firing 2 "unaimed" shots accross the chest he had stood his ground a distance from the door and fired 2 "aimed" shots the boy might be fine. Given good shot placement *then* we can talk about ammo. Glasers or Magsafes should do the trick nicely at close ranges. It`s also VERY important to look around and see where you have better backstops and where you don`t *before* you need to fire your gun in self defence. My plan when I lived in a similar apartment was to crouch behind the arm of the sofa to cover the door. This would put my shots (if they missed or overpenetrated) above head level accross the hall and a few feet to the side of their flimsy door. That`s about as good as it got there. Sorry for rambling on. :) Marcus
 
I found a card of .25ACP Glasers at a gun shop, and bought them for my Beretta Jetfire in hopes that I could make my little "house pistol" somewhat more effective. The Glasers have such a tiny bullet, I never put them in the Jetfire. Now I think I will.

I takes a lot o' guns,
Will


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Mendacity is the system we live in.
 
IMHO, the tragedy is a result of 1) Pure bad luck and 2) bad tactics.

I personally would not use a 357 mag in an apartment precicely because of penetration issues REGARDLESS of the load used except for MAYBE .38 spcl frangible.

Big and slow would be my choice here, but I still maintain that the #1 problem was bad luck.

-LevelHead-
 
A shot gun with #6 shot, #4 at the most will suffice. Remember, a 20 gauge w/bird shot at point blank range will make the bad guy's face distorted beyond recognition. Oh yeah, shotguns take care of the caliber vs. placment argument very nicely. ;)

If you go with a Mossy or Winchester self defense model, leave the full stock on. The pistol grip can be tough for ladies to manage.



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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
This hasn't been mentioned, so I guess I will say it.

What the hell was the boy looking through the peephole for!!!

I realize that the boy cannot be "blamed" in any way for the incident, but where were his parents and why wasn't he in a back room away from the violence. He may have been trained to go away from violence/danger and simply been disobeying and curious, but in the present society I doubt it.

I think a major lesson to take from this is to teach children(and others) to run away from the area of people banging on doors, yelling, etc. Don't let curiousity get the best of you. Either take cover or take action(if prepared for that), don't become an innocent but dead victim if you can avoid it.

As far as what to do in that self defense situation, I agree with finding a better place to shoot from as was mentioned above. Find a place of cover with a rest for the gun.(back of chair, etc) The details are less important than the basics. Know what you are shooting and what is behind what you are shooting. Plan ahead and discuss what you would do with family and neighbors. Kids should drop to the floor and avoid violence, not peek out the windows, doors, etc.

I enjoy the discussion on bullets and types of weapons, but I presume we all agree that the basics are primary to staying safe and alive.

Kiffster

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Sig 229 .40 - When you care enough to shoot the very best!
Taking away my guns stops crime like taking away my food stops Rosie from being FAT.
 
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