Bolt clearance??

BoogieMan

New member
I am building a 700 action. I think I'm going to replace the bolt with a tighter fitting pt bolt. I know it's overkill. But, I want to address everything. Stock bolt has about .01" diameter of clearance. I am considering honing the receiver and getting the bolt to have a clearance of .0005-.0010. How tight can I go without having interference issues? Action will be bedded in the stock. This is not a hunting rifle.
Am I wasting time and money to do this? I can also shim the stock bolt to lap the lugs without going to the tighter fitting bolt.
Also on a side note: is the stock bolt handle silver soldered onto the bolt body?
 
I drilled a hole in the bottom of a VZ24 receiver in 2002, screwed in a spring ball detent plug, and then lapped the lugs with the bolt pushed the top of the bolt bore.

I just steel bedded a stock for that 257 Roberts Ackley Lothar Walther light varmint.

This is the 7th Mauser I have steel bedded in a couple weeks, and the first one I have had to drill for the bolt centering spring plunger

http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/...cessories/Ball-Buttons-Detents?navid=12108378

What I am trying to says is, you can have a tight fitting bolt, or you can make the bolt fit tighter by pushing on it with a spring ball.
 

Attachments

  • 257RAI Lothar Walther VZ24 spring detent steel bedding 3-12-2016.jpg
    257RAI Lothar Walther VZ24 spring detent steel bedding 3-12-2016.jpg
    132.8 KB · Views: 23
Clark- that's an interesting idea. The reason I want the bolt tight is to insure that it stays centered. The ball detent would make the bolt always off center. We are talking about a minimum amount of about .005. Still this is a target rifle. I may just lap the factory bolt in and shoot it. If my shooting progresses beyond the rifles ability I will change bolts and lap it in. I am using the remage barrel nut system. So removal and reinstall is a snap.
 
Outside of reloading and gun smiting there is knurling. The inside diameter is knurled to reduce the inside diameter and then reamed. For me there is little chance of missing the fit because my reamers are adjustable.

F. Guffey
 
When I do a build, I look for about .005" clearance. Any tighter and you can't open the bolt when the rifle gets hot, any looser and it feels sloppy. PTG sells bolts and reamers for the 700 action, call them and talk to them about it. Or just buy one of their blueprinted actions.
 
Thanks scortch. The .005 clearance is what I was looking for.
Btw- I called ptg friday about some bottom metal. It took me 35 mins to get to someone who had any idea about the products they sell.
 
Bolt play has little to do with accuracy. The consistency of the final lockup is what matters. I doubt you can tell a difference in accuracy between a factory bolt that's been blueprinted with the action and an aftermarket bolt that has been custom fitted for clearance.

World of difference in feel, not a world of difference in accuracy. Falls under the category of "doesn't hurt accuracy, might possibly be helpful if all else is equal" in my book.

Good luck on your build, and I hope it shoots one ragged hole :)

Jimro
 
Btw- I called ptg friday about some bottom metal. It took me 35 mins to get to someone who had any idea about the products they sell.

You were lucky, all I've ever gotten was someone that could read the online information with me and a promised return call that was never received.
Might try JGS or Manson, don't know if the make oversize bolts and raceway reamers though.

I agree it's splitting hairs, but there's a very small percentage of rifles- and more importantly the guy/gal driving it that could tell the difference. The "play" has an effect as relates to bolt lift- when it's significant enough that the boltface/fp ends up not perfectly centered on the case due to the fp spring pressure lifting the bolthead when the bolt is run into battery.
 
I agree with Jimro on this one. I looked at a PTG setup last year also. Decided not to just because of what he said. In the long run it does nothing for accuracy.
When all else is done to my rifle I might look at it again just for another thinng to do to it though.
 
Thanks for all the advice. I understand the advantage of the bolt raceway being in line. Also it seems like the advantage is extremely small. Maybe .01 MOA. At this point my skill is not at a level that will make a difference. I'm not capable of grouping .01 MOA regardless of the rifle. I think that this rifle should shoot 1/4 MOA with the work going into it. That will be plenty of a chalenge for me.
 
4runnerman
I agree with Jimro on this one.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is a long list of expensive ways to chase accuracy, but when you have seen a $350 Rem 700 223 shoot a 0.3" group at sunup with no wind, you know that we are down to diminishing returns.
 
BogieMan said:
The ball detent would make the bolt always off center.

Like many adjustable trigger guns that can be set to light, crisp pull, the Remington has an override or negative angle engagement at the striker cocking stud and sear interface. This means cocked striker spring pressure is bearing against a forward sloped ramp, pushing the striker, and through it the bolt body, up against any vertical slop in the bolt way in the receiver. This means the bolt tends to go to the same position in the receiver every time it is cocked, regardless of how tight the fit in the bolt way actually is. But it also means this is always off-center. The old Mauser trigger is just a direct straight vertical engagement between the sear and cocking stud, so it doesn't to that, and thus Clark's detent ball pressure forces the repeatable positioning.

How much you have to worry about thermal expansion depends on how you use the rifle. If you were shooting a Mauser or Springfield or Enfield in the Vintage Military rifle matches, where rapid fire is involved, I would be concerned about the possibility of expansion causing interference with feeding. If you shoot a match where there is time for the heat to flow and equalize between shots, I would expect the receiver, being in intimate contact with the chamber through the barrel threads, will tend to heat to the rear faster than the bolt and thus to expand more than the bolt, tending to loosen rather than tighten the fit, but this is design detail dependent and there are scenarios in which is can happen either way. You would do best, before tightening, to assemble the bolt into the receiver with some shim stock pieces surrounding the bolt to take up the slop, then do some shooting and see if an issue with the fit develops.

If no issue develops and if you have machine tools available, you can use an inside knurl to do as Mr. Guffey described, provided you are working with a receiver that isn't case hardened where you want to upset the surface by knurling and then ream it to size.

The norm in truing guns and receivers has been to true the bolt lugs and face on its longitudinal axis, and ditto with the receiver rings and barrel threads. But I sometimes wonder, is that really best? What is expected in this arrangement is that when the striker is released and the vertical pressure ceases and the bolt body is free to wiggle in the bolt way again, the pressure on the bolt face from the cartridge firing will force the lugs to flatten and swing the back end of the bolt down into centered position. I'll have to calculate or measure the moment of inertia of a bolt or two from the lugs to back to see if there's enough force to complete that alignment when the bullet is still in the barrel or not. In the worst scenario, the bolt would swing down toward flat lug engagement and swing past it and rock until it settled.

I suspect that unless you intend to tighten the fit as Mr. Guffey does, you might do best to use the spring detents to tend to hold the bolt where the striker will position it anyway, and to lap the lugs with the bolt in that slightly off-axis position and to run a small inside toolpost grinding point or to use Dave Manson's bolt facing tool with the bolt in that position. This way the firing pressure won't tend to move the bolt alignment of the roof of the bolt way at all. It's something I'll experiment with at some point with one of my old Mausers.

As to how much difference this all makes, it will depend on the gun and chambering and whether being off axis can affect your groups. Harold Vaughn measured that it did, but he was working on a 1/4 moa gun. The designers at Savage told me they'd tried single-point turning receivers and bolts experimentally and that it they did get measurably improved accuracy, but they didn't have a way to do it within production cost parameters.
 
"The old Mauser trigger is just a direct straight vertical engagement between the sear and cocking stud, so it doesn't to that ... "

No, but no matter how smooth the cocking piece and sear are, the sear's downward movement will drag the bolt down with it, so it is sort of a "six of one" situation vs a system like the Remington or Wnichester 70, which is sometimes called a "prop up" sear.

Jim
 
It isn't like the striker spring is the only spring pushing against the bolt to keep it in place. The ejector button on a Savage or Rem, or being pushed back by the detent piece on the left side of bolt on a Mauser is also doing the same thing. These forces are much less than the striker spring, but they do serve to put the bolt in consistent alignment after the sear is removed and the firing pin flies, so as long as the harmonics developed are consistent, so is accuracy.

The goal of a good blueprinting job is so that those rocking forces described by Unclenick don't happen, or are minimized. Truing everything up to the receiver threads is the best way to do this. Simply getting more bolt lug to receiver contact is meaningless without a complete truing job.

But with a 15 to 22# firing pin spring, you are going to get some harmonics, even if everything is mechanically perfect, in the spring itself. No way to eliminate that without going to electric ignition (which hasn't yet proven more accurate than mechanical ignition).

Jimro
 
Clark, did you, or could make a videos of the installation of that detent on a mauser action, and detail the reasoning behind it?
Please and thank you.
 
James K said:
No, but no matter how smooth the cocking piece and sear are, the sear's downward movement will drag the bolt down with it, so it is sort of a "six of one" situation vs a system like the Remington or Wnichester 70, which is sometimes called a "prop up" sear.

If you look at the Sako and Remington Walker trigger mechanisms, you see the drag from the trigger on its end of the trigger is parallel to the bolt in the forward direction. In the Winchester the slip is at an angle, but in all three, the drag is present only because the cocking stud is pushing off in the upward direction against its negative engagement angle with the sear. Once the sear is released, the slip off that engagement angle is still in the same direction the spring held against it in the cocked position. It pushes the released sear down via the slope, while the bolt is being pushed up by equal and opposite reaction to that. Once the cocking stud clears the sear, though, the upward pressure from the striker spring is gone

Jimro's point about the ejector spring is important, though. I just calculated how far the back of the bolt could fall in 5 milliseconds of spring travel without it, and it worked out to 4.8 thousandths. This assumes there is that much room for it to drop and that the gun his held horizontally, so gravity is straight down and that there was no drag friction at the bolt handle or elsewhere. I had not allowed for that before. So the detents may make sense even with an override trigger gun if the design lacks that ejector assist in keeping the back end of the bolt up, as some single-shot actions do.
 
Back
Top