Bolt action vs. semiauto

B

Brazos

Inactive
I have a question that's at least somewhat related to the current discussion.

I keep seeing references to the idea that a well-trained rifleman can deliver *aimed* fire from a bolt-action rifle at a rate not all that different from a semiautomatic rifle. But I can't find any numbers for either.

The closest thing I've found was a mention in a shooting page (which I now can't find) of a competition in Sweden where the winner delivered some unbelievable number of hits on a "helmet-sized target" at 200 yards or meters in 30 seconds.

Can anyone enlighten me?
 
In WWII demonstrations, well trained British troops were able to fire the Rifle No. 1 MK III just about as fast as Americans could fire the M1 rifle. The secret was that the British soldiers worked the bolts while the rifle was in recoil, using the index finger and thumb on the bolt and pulling the trigger with the middle finger.

The problem was that even trained troops could not keep this up for long, while the M1 shooters could keep going much longer before fatigue took over.

The armies of the WWII period saw the main advantage of the semi-auto not as being faster but as being less exhausting.

Jim
 
BRAZO:

Some years back there were two Nagrone brothers, George and I can't remember the other one, were "Bolt Gun" Shooters for the Army team. Both could compete right along with the SA's in speed and accuracy. It was a sight to behold.

One Brother was left handed and if my memory serves, he was the better of the two.

HJN
 
As a bit of a followup to Jim's post, remember the Enfield was a cock-on-closing, so opening the bolt by merely cocking the wrist was fairly easy.

A British team at a long range match open to military, or mil-only--Palma? Wimbledon?--showed their speed, back when the Garand was the new, hot-tip US goodie...Late '30s or so.

Absent China's human wave assaults, as seen in Korea, and admitting my knowledge of WW II in Europe and Infantry fighting is second hand: Targets for aimed fire wouldn't generally be enough for fatigue to be a factor...However, since not all soldiers could be super-speed with a bolt action, and since a rapid second shot can be a Good Thing, I'd take a semi-auto...

As an ex-USMC buddy of mine has commented, at times the best weapon is a radio, calling the artillery... :)

Later, Art
FWIW, Art
 
The Germans early in WWI thought they were facing massed heavy machine guns during one battle. They were only facing highly trained British troops with bolt actions.
 
Thanks for the great responses, guys.

What I'd *really* like to find out, though, is how fast can these experts shoot and at what ranges? Could they get off 30 aimed shots a minute? 20? 10? At 50 yards? 100? 200?

I've been looking for this kind of info, but haven't been able to find it. Can anyone point me at a source, either on the web or in print?
 
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