body die/Lee collet vs FL die/Lee Collet Neck die

milboltnut

Moderator
body die/Lee collet vs FL die/Lee Collet Neck die (update 6/21)

I tried to search for an answer about the main advantage to body dies.

The body die/Lee collet deal is great and the video Unclenick posted in my thread "neck turn or full length bushing size" I gather axial alignment of the case over all and minimal to no runout, concentricity wise.

I gather with the body die/collet, verses FL die/collet, is, less work hardening, or is there another reason I don't see? Not having to force the neck over the decapping mandrel verses forcing using the FL die oversizing the neck is a given.
 
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Because of its mandrel, the Lee Collet die never over-resizes necks, so it eliminates the standard die's neck over-resizing that requires an expander to correct. The body die is like any other FL die, except its neck is too wide to do any neck resizing, so it leaves the neck alone. But you can't use neck-sized-only cases in the Garand and other self-loaders with floating firing pins not only because of the risk of feed failure but of the less-likely but not impossible and very destructive out-of-battery firing. So you need the case body resized as well as the neck, and that's what the body die does without disturbing the neck. Using these two dies turns resizing into two steps with two dies, but this does seem to keep cases very straight and concentric. Some folks use the body die first, and then the collet die, and some are doing it the other way around. I have found both sequences result in concentric cases, but if you see a difference, go with the better one.
 
I've seen a few dozen cases from Garands claimed to be fired out of battery. All had the same size primer dents as normal fired cases.

Proof to me the hammer hook engagement to the trigger sear was insufficient to withstand the shock of chambering a new cartridge.

Verified by dry firing noting this issue
 
I know how body die works, and the expander mandrel corrects oversizing FL dies..

The neck is way undersized to use the collet die, collet die is strictly for fired cases. Just tried a FL case sized without the expander ball, however I installed the decapper/ball expander, and the neck goes over the decapper mandrel in the collet very easily, and am able to size the neck.

Wondering... does the ball expander only deform the neck, or does it bother the shoulder too?
 
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I know how body die works, and the expander mandrel corrects oversizing FL dies..

The neck is way undersized to use the collet die, collet die is strictly for fired cases. Just tried a FL case sized without the expander ball, however I installed the decapper/ball expander, and the neck goes over the decapper mandrel in the collet very easily, and am able to size the neck.

Wondering... does the ball expander only deform the neck, or does it bother the shoulder too?
When the expander ball comes up through the case neck, it usually bends the case neck. Seldom, if ever, bothers shoulders

Top ranked competitive shooters learned this over 60 years ago.
 
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I took UN’s advice a few years ago and am thoroughly convinced the Redding body die combined with the Lee Collet Neck die is the only way to go. Neck turn, body size, neck size, then trim to length on the first reload. After that just body size, then neck size. After this I anneal every five reloads.
 
Jet interior guy

Neck turning before sizing? The case isn't stable on the pilot. I always anneal, partial FL, expand mandrel, neck turn, trim.

I had a guy tell me that... International Benchrest Society (IBS). Writers were members of IBS, shooters, gunsmiths, bullet makers and others associated with benchrest shooters, the majority of shooters at that time were using Redding equipment.

Why is Redding so good compared to other dies or in this case body dies ? Dimensionally speaking ? Below SAMMI specs I take it?
 
Reloading die dimensions are up to the maker. RCBS tech John Thor told me their designs are based on the SAAMI chamber minimum -0.003", ±0.002", except necks are even narrower to allow for the SAMMI neck brass minimum thickness (an indirect number you have to calculate as the minimum finished cartridge neck diameter less their maximum bullet diameter and the result divided by two) to still be resized. But that's RCBS's choice. I don't know what the others are using. If the ±0.002" is common in the industry, it explains why some people think one brand is tighter than another, when they may only have happened to get copies that were on opposite ends of the tolerance range.

I don't know what Redding uses. They do very nice machining so their dies are among the best looking. Their Competition Seating Die and their Profile Crimp Die and some of the newer sleeved sizing dies are slightly different than other and, IME, better than others I've used. But inexpensive doesn't always mean bad. The Lee Collet Die is great and their standard sizing dies still are, I believe, the only ones in the industry that are honed to final dimensions, a method that should keep them perfectly round in cross-section. The Redding Instant Indicator makes some measurements others aren't bothering with, like allowing you to measure shoulder-to-bullet ogive distance directly, which gives you the dimension that actually determines the final bullet jump to the throat of a rimless bottleneck cartridge chamber. There is a workaround you can do with a case and a bullet comparator, but it takes two steps instead of getting it in one.

As to turning necks before resizing, that used to be pretty difficult to do but now, if you go to 21st Century Reloading you can buy mandrels in half-thousandth diameter increments and put together a set that will let you find the right slip-fit for your as-fired cases if you prefer to turn those before resizing, as long as the mouths aren't dented. It's not the usual thing to do because of those dents, but it has the advantage that if do it before cleaning the cases, you get some lubrication effect from the carbon deposits in the neck. I've turned new cases and SS pin-tumbled cases and they tend to grab the mandrel and require inside neck lube to stop the brass from galling and building up on the mandrel.

Incidentally, 21st Century also offers nitrided mandrels as an alternative to investing in carbide mandrels. Unfortunately, they are in the middle of a website upgrade, so clicking on a lot of their products for more information just takes you to the same page at the new URL.
 
Bart B

Of course it closes easily. Bumping shoulders on fired formed cases .002-.003, I get a nice smooth bolt closure. It's always been my practice ever since I partial FL size. I bought a case gauge and the case is flush with the high step, and never had a problem closing the bolt or had/have issues after getting a Hornady head and shoulders headspace caliper gauge set.
 
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Jet interior guy

Neck turning before sizing? The case isn't stable on the pilot. I always anneal, partial FL, expand mandrel, neck turn, trim.

I had a guy tell me that... International Benchrest Society (IBS). Writers were members of IBS, shooters, gunsmiths, bullet makers and others associated with benchrest shooters, the majority of shooters at that time were using Redding equipment.

Why is Redding so good compared to other dies or in this case body dies ? Dimensionally speaking ? Below SAMMI specs I take it?
I found if I neck turned after sizing the necks were just a little tight on the mandrel and sometimes would gall just enough I’d have to polish brass build up off of the mandrel with some flitz. I’m using the Hornady neck turning setup, I don’t necessarily care for it but I got it from my daughter as a Christmas present, and even though there are things about it I’m not real keen on, it does do the job quite well. This is on the LC brass for my AR, don’t have this problem with my 6.5CM brass. I suppose I could take the .223 mandrel down a little in diameter until it works better with after sizing, but as is I’ve done over 3000 pieces pre-sized and get typically.001” or less runout and this amount of cases should last a lifetime for me. I just went with Redding body dies based on UN’s advice, he sure knows a heck of a lot more than me and I trust his advice implicitly.
 
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My solution to tight necks on the pilot is solved by: Anneal, FL size, rotate expand mandrel 3-4X's, neck turn, expand. Neck tension .001 bullet loaded.
 
My pilot is .306 and its a Forster. Shouldn't matter what brand turner it is. What diameter is your pilot? I run my necks at .307. My procedure makes very little to no spring back.
 
Bart B

Of course it closes easily. Bumping shoulders on fired formed cases .002-.003, I get a nice smooth bolt closure. It's always been my practice ever since I partial FL size. I bought a case gauge and the case is flush with the high step, and never had a problem closing the bolt or had/have issues after getting a Hornady head and shoulders headspace caliper gauge set.
I asked because partial full length sizing typically moves the case shoulder forward a thousandth or more. Evidenced by any resistance to the bolt closing. It's detrimental to accuracy
 
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