Blue Dot in 9mm Luger

C

cdoc42

New member
I have 2-never opened 1-lb canisters of Blue Dot that carry a price tag of $7.40. I opened one; there is no acrid odor and no powder dust suggesting deterioration.

I generally use Blue Dot to load 16-GA shotshells, but that is so minimal that I decided to use it up in handgun loads. My first pursuit was to load 9mm Luger Berry's 124gr Defensive Hollow Point bullets at 1.060" COL.

Lyman's 50th guide lists 7.1gr as max while the Alliant site lists 7.9gr as max for the 124gr bullets they used.

I loaded a round with 6.9gr and found the bullet seating was retarded by what struck me as a pretty full case. I had to reset the seat to push the bullet further into the powder charge to get to 1.060."

Alliant lists 8.5gr of Blue Dot for a 115gr JHP. I took a case that measured to "trim to" size of 0.744" and filled it with 8.5gr. It is at least 95% full.

I have never had a handgun case this full, nor any that compressed at all, including .44 Mag with H-110. Are there any cautions I should be observing?
 
Coincidence you should ask this, I just now finished loading up a batch of 9mm luger, 115g extreme RN plated, with Blue Dot, to test as soon as I get to the range. I saw the 8.5g max listed for 115g bullet. So I am doing a workup, from 7.0g, 7.2, 7.4 7.6, 7.8 8.0 8.2 and 8.4g, to chrono and test at 7yds.
I am doing this to finish off a pound of blue dot that just had a small amount left.
Also my cousin has been loading blue dot and 9mm for years, one day at the range, someone had a chrono and tested his load for him and was surprised to see the high velocity, somewhere over 1200fps. He has never mentioned any over pressure, but also I can't remember if he said the accuracy was good.
If you want, I can post my results here someday?
 
A few weeks ago they re-started the "fun" steel matches at my club, and I was looking for some 9mm ammo in my closet. Found some boxes marked "125 SP 7.8 Blue Dot WSP primer 1.140" 05/23/99". Took them to the match, they shot fine.

Recalling that I used to load 125 grain jacketed soft points from a now defunct outfit named Star Bullets, from Wideners, I went to my loading notebook and found that load.

I also found a 5-lb jug of Blue Dot with maybe a pound left in it, and it smelled ok.

The Alliant website does list 8.5 grains with 115 grain bullets, and an old .pdf of their manual listed numbers close to that.

Sorry to ramble so badly! I loaded some 115 grain Berry's plated ball with 7.5 grains Blue Dot and they shot fine, no untoward noise / recoil / cases did not eject into orbit, and bullets went more or less where they were aimed (the "less" part of that was me).

So yes, it looks like too much powder in the case but they shot fine.

Note the COL (1.140") was longer than what you wrote. Speer #12 says 1.135" for 115 TMJ ball and I think I was loading long (without getting into the lands) to reduce peak pressure.
 
Blue Dot is a bulky flake powder and as you see, will compress readily. It takes a lot and is not very economical... unless you already have some.
 
Exactly! Not economical - but these days, powder you have is better than powder you don't (as long as it is still good).

Getting back into reloading in the early 1990s I recall buying Blue Dot because it was listed in the Speer manual for both 9mm and .357 magnum.

I wound up using Unique for .38 Special, 9mm, and "Cowboy Action" .357 mag. VV N110 for full house .357 mag, which I almost never shoot any more.

I did shoot up a bunch of Blue Dot in 9mm but then, for a while, Wally World sold Winchester White Box 9mm for $10.97 / 100 and I shot those and saved all the brass. And wound up "hoarding" the Blue Dot that was left.

Like to find some Unique. Maybe next year...
 
My 1970 Lyman book says 1.169" max loaded length for 9mm Luger,

If you are below that, you aren't "loading long".

Any time you find a listed "Max" length that differs from the industry standard, I think it is prudent to find out why. Sometimes, it is something specific to the bullet, for a good reason. Sometimes its just the length that bullet winds up at when seated normally.

An example of this is RN vs Spitzter. Set your seater to load a pointed bullet at industry standard max length. Then change to a RN bullet of the same weight. Don't change the die, seat the RN and see what the COAL length winds up at. Bet money its going to be shorter than the spitzer.

A difference of 0.03" isn't much and can easily be the result of different profile bullet noses.

Blue Dot can work in the 9mm Luger. Blue Dot can work in a lot of things but isn't the best choice possible for many of them. I've used Blue Dot in larger cases, and I feel it is not the best choice for 9mm Luger. n the small 9mm Luger case, I've used Red Dot with acceptable results, but something even faster like Bullseye or W231 is even better, and gives you the most rounds per pound.

One thing you might consider, see if anyone might have a more suitable (faster) powder they would be willing to trade for your Blue Dot. In the good old days I would have said sell the Blue Dot and buy a better powder. Today, there's no certainty of being able to buy a better powder when you want it. so a trade is a better option if you can find one.
 
WOW! I was just leaving for the range and I thought I'd check this post, figuring I wouldn't see anything until tomorrow!! Thanks to all for the info!

Lugerstew I would be interested in your findings and I'll look forward to your post.

44AMP, my Lyman is the 50th Edition and lists 1.060 COL for Hornady XTP 124gr and 1.090 for 115gr. BUT- checking Hodgdon's site, I can't identify the bullet because it is contracted -maybe it's Berry, I can't tell. But Hodgdon lists 1.150" with 124gr bullet using HP-38 (Max 4.4gr) and CFE-Pistol (Max 5.5gr). I loaded a few with those powders and COLs - below max -so we'll see how it goes.

I'll report when I get back from the range.
 
Well, the only negative, but critically important, problem was 4 of 9 cartridges carrying the Berry 124gr bullet failed to go into battery. I had performed the "plunk" test on each of the dummy rounds at 1.060" and 1.150" COLs and they were even with, or just slightly below the edge of the barrel marker as depicted by Unclenick in a previous post.

First round was 3 loaded with Blue Dot at 1.060." The first and third rounds did not go into battery; the second one did.

Round two was 3 loaded with HP-38 at 1.150." One did not go into battery.

Round 3 was 3 loaded with CFE-Pistol at 1.150". One did not go into battery.

All the cases were 0.745-0.746" (trim to is 0.744; max is 0.754) The "taper" crimps felt tight; I could "feel" the crimp as I lowered the press handle. I arrived at that crimp using the equation Mouth rim thickness x 2 + bullet diameter. In this case it was 0.012 x 2 + 0.355 = 0.379. My crimped cartridge measurement was 0.375-0.376. So maybe even though I thought it was well-crimped, it was not. Complicating this, the Berry bullet is 0.356" - so the crimped cartridge should have measured 0.38". At the same time,not all cases were the same manufacturer, so, perhaps, the mouth thickness was a variable that affected the crimp and subsequent chamber headspace.

Is insufficient crimp a reason for battery failure? Or, can it just be the shape of the Berry bullet is not compatible with my Walther PPQ?

I have been shooting 115gr JHPs from Hornady (XTP), Everglades (Florida) and Precision Delta (Mississippi) and I have never had a round fail to go into battery.

Any thoughts?
 
Or, can it just be the shape of the Berry bullet is not compatible with my Walther PPQ?
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Walthers (modern ones) are notoriously picky. Friend knew someone who had 5 different Walther 9mms and none of them would run on Cor-Bon ammo. Ran fine on other stuff, but not that one brand. My friend traded him for other ammo and both were happy.

Is insufficient crimp a reason for battery failure?
Click to expand...

It can be. So can an improper crimp, which is not exactly the same thing.
 
cdoc42 said:
Well, the only negative, but critically important, problem was 4 of 9 cartridges carrying the Berry 124gr bullet failed to go into battery. I had performed the "plunk" test on each of the dummy rounds at 1.060" and 1.150" COLs and they were even with, or just slightly below the edge of the barrel marker as depicted by Unclenick in a previous post.

First round was 3 loaded with Blue Dot at 1.060." The first and third rounds did not go into battery; the second one did.

Round two was 3 loaded with HP-38 at 1.150." One did not go into battery.

Round 3 was 3 loaded with CFE-Pistol at 1.150". One did not go into battery.

All the cases were 0.745-0.746" (trim to is 0.744; max is 0.754) The "taper" crimps felt tight; I could "feel" the crimp as I lowered the press handle. I arrived at that crimp using the equation Mouth rim thickness x 2 + bullet diameter. In this case it was 0.012 x 2 + 0.355 = 0.379. My crimped cartridge measurement was 0.375-0.376. So maybe even though I thought it was well-crimped, it was not. Complicating this, the Berry bullet is 0.356" - so the crimped cartridge should have measured 0.38". At the same time,not all cases were the same manufacturer, so, perhaps, the mouth thickness was a variable that affected the crimp and subsequent chamber headspace.

Is insufficient crimp a reason for battery failure? Or, can it just be the shape of the Berry bullet is not compatible with my Walther PPQ?

I have been shooting 115gr JHPs from Hornady (XTP), Everglades (Florida) and Precision Delta (Mississippi) and I have never had a round fail to go into battery.

Any thoughts?
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Due to variation in brass thicknesses and sizing dies, trying to measure crimp is difficult at best. There are 2 factors, crimp on the bullet, and max mouth diameter. According to my manual the maximum outside dimension of the mouth should be 0.380. As long as you are below 0.380 it should chamber and feed properly. My main focus is always to make sure the cartridge is within specs. I have loaded plenty of 9mm with no crimp at all with no issues. I have loaded plenty with a light taper crimp. The main thing with Berry's plated is not to over crimp. The plating is thinner than jacketed bullets and can be damaged by too firm a crimp.
 
Shadow9mm, thanks for your thoughts. I'm paying more attention to the taper crimp because I've had a few of both 9mm and .380 Auto fail to chamber and when ejected the bullet had been pushed more deeply into the case.

44AMP: can you clarify what you mean by "improper" crimp in relation to an insufficient crimp?
 
I load all my 9mm luger to 1.130, and I can only remember a couple that failed to go into battery out of thousands of rounds and 5 different guns.
I don't have a Walther, only 2 glocks, a Ruger, a Springfield and a Sig Sauer.
 
44AMP: can you clarify what you mean by "improper" crimp in relation to an insufficient crimp?
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insufficient crimp is not enough crimp to do the job of holding the bullet in place.

Improper crimp is crimp that isn't done right, is in the wrong place, or is the wrong type, or even too much crimp.

It is much more common when using a roll crimp, but a taper crimp can be screwed up as well.
 
So in re-reading your posts I wanted to clarify a couple points and ask a question to try and trouble shoot.

you are currently testing berrys 124g defensive hollow points. are you talking the 124g hybrid hollow point, or the 124g bonded hollow point?

you have tested 115g hollow points, mainly XTP, Everglades (several types), precision delta (looks similar to XTP) with no issues.

What are you meaning by failure to go into battery. Are you talking a failure to feed where the round does not go into the chamber smoothly when hitting the feed ramp or barrel? you mentioned set bullet set back under these circumstances.

Or are you meaning that the round is feeding into the chamber. but not feeding all the way, out of battery? the former made more sense to me as you mentioned the bullet set back.

under what circumstances is it failing. Is it failing during firing, or failing when you rack or drop the slide?

if out of battery can you tap the back of the slide and make it go into battery?

when firing, is the ejection light, normal, or strong? how far is it throwing the brass? thinking maybe an under powered round?


Did you get the gun new or used?
how long have you had it?
about how many rounds have you put through it?
how regularly and deeply do you clean the gun?

it could be a number of issues, here's what I can come up with off the top of my head

the gun does not like the hollow point shape and does not want to feed
there is not enough crimp (check neck diameter after sizing)
the brass is not fully resized (and is binding in the chamber, improperly adjusted die or short stroking, which I doubt based on passing the plunk test)
the load is anemic and not pushing the slide back enough the chamber a new round properly
the guide rod spring is worn out not giving enough force to chamber the round
the chamber area is dirty, carbon or copper buildup where the mouth headspaces, or there is an obstruction keeping some of the slightly longer brass from fully seating.


Side notes
On a side note, the XTP having the short nose and long bearing surface, generally needs to be seated deeper in my experience or it hits the rifling and will not chamber (I pulled 100 bullets on that mistake) bullets with more tapered or rounded ogives can generally be seated longer. if it passes the plunk test it should be fine.

In addition to 44amp's post. is is possible to crimp 9mm too much. the case headspaces on the case mouth. If you crimp too much the cartridge could go too far into the chamber and cause headspace problems. based on where you said it is seating and your plunk test I don't think this is an issue, just wanted to throw that out there.

Sorry if its a bit much, just trying to think of everything I can think of that could cause the problem to start eliminating possible causes.
 
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you are currently testing berrys 124g defensive hollow points. are you talking the 124g hybrid hollow point, or the 124g bonded hollow point? – 124 Hybrid

What are you meaning by failure to go into battery.
under what circumstances is it failing. Is it failing during firing, or failing when you rack or drop the slide?

It has failed when I drop the slide for the first round in the mag as well as after successfully firing and ejection, the next round does not fully close the slide; I can tap the back to get it in battery.

when firing, is the ejection light, normal, or strong? how far is it throwing the brass? thinking maybe an under powered round?

Ejection is normal- all fired cases are in the same ground location

Did you get the gun new or used? New

about how many rounds have you put through it? At least 500

it could be a number of issues, here's what I can come up with off the top of my head

the gun does not like the hollow point shape and does not want to feed – my thought

there is not enough crimp (check neck diameter after sizing)-My crimp is 0.375-.376 and it should be a max of .378-so is too much if anything

the brass is not fully resized (and is binding in the chamber, improperly adjusted die or short stroking, which I doubt based on passing the plunk test)- Yes, the plunk test has not failed

the load is anemic and not pushing the slide back enough the chamber a new round properly- probably not, given I’m loading 0.2gr under max

the guide rod spring is worn out not giving enough force to chamber the round-too new to consider that
 
Well that rules out most of the issues. It is a failure to go into battery, not a feeding issue and it passed the plunk test. this makes me think its not the bullet. and being a new gun it should not be a spring issue.

I am not trying to throw any shade don't know you, your shooting or cleaning habbits . limp wrist, and a dirty gun come to mind. either or both could slow the slide down enough to make it not want to go fully into battery. or there could be a fouling buildup in the chamber making it stick.

what puzzle me is the bullet set back you ran into. with the amount of crimp, based on the finished OD of the neck, they should be good.

What brass are you using? a specific headstamp? mixed headstamp? how many times fired?

I had issues a while back with -cbc- head stamp. it was sticky in my press and crimps did not want to stay in place. had a bullet fall out after being crimped twice. could be bad brass...
 
I think this is actually easy.

Go get some commercial 9 MM ammo. Measure it, then shoot it. If it shoots good, but your reloads dont shoot, cuz they get stuck and wont go into battery, then the best solution is not the internet, its go find somebody in person that knows how to reload 9 MM and kindly ask them to teach you about loading 9 MM.
failure to go into battery, and you can tap it to make it shoot, means 2 things basically could be happening, and its almost 100% these 2 things.

1) the flare, or diameter somewhere in the brass is too large slightly. Meaning the crimp is super bad and didnt FULLy get rid of the flare probably. Taper Crimp is the only game in town for 9 MM.

2) The bullet is too long OAL and hitting the barrel. Maybe your plunk test is not correct. 1.050 for 9 MM is shorter than anything I ever seen 115+ grain. Not even 100 grain round nose 380 bullets, need 1.050, or super fat nosed montana gold 95 grain, which can do about 1.060 or so. Hornady XTP hit many 9 MM around 1.105 or so, and those are the most stubborn ones. Most HP, like Gold dot, or Berry, or you name it, can take 1.130 or more.

I will bet its one of those if it shoots commercial ammo with no failure.

I have shot about 200,000, or who even knows, 9MM. I never seen, not even 1 time, the problem being brass too long. 9MM is one of the most forgiving firearms ever made in the history of mankind.
 
I might have it!. On berrys site, if you hit the description tab, it has a loading tips section. For the 124g hybrid berrys reccomeds a col of 1.090. If your seating too deep you may not actually be crimping. Just tapering onto the ogive. And too far in or out, especially with hollow points could cause feeding problems. I would try a few at that col and see how they run.
 
Shadow9mm: "what puzzle me is the bullet set back you ran into. with the amount of crimp, based on the finished OD of the neck, they should be good."

I have a suspicion the cause of the bullet setback is too small of a case. I usually don't measure the pistol cases based on other discussions about the cases not getting longer. But I measured a few today and found they were as short as .740 and .739. That would present a crimp problem.

"What brass are you using? a specific headstamp? mixed headstamp?"
The brass is all mixed. 3 of the cases that failed to go into battery were R-P, so I'll look more closely at that.

Addendum, as I took a break after posting above, and came back to find your post. Thanks -that is really helpful. I will try a few at 1.090!
 
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