Black powder vs. Smokeless in .45LC

3

357 Plato

New member
I know next to nothing about black powder. But I would like to know more.

I´ve been shooting .22, .38, 357 mags, 9mm and .32 for years now. But have never used black powder.

I would like to know how black powder compares to smokeless powders when used in .45LC.

I know that there is anything from “cowboy loads” to “Ruger only loads” out there. But where does the black powder loads fit in? Some data would be nice.

Also does the same gun behave differently when used with black powder rather than smokeless?

In short: What is the difference – apart from the huge smoke cloud?

If this question has been “beaten to death” before, please point me in the right direction.

Thank you in advance.
 
Aside form the huge cloud of smoke using BP allows one to utilize the potential of weapons of an older design. None of the currently avalible cowboy calibers give the performance the originals did. The reason is the guns were designed before smokeless powder was used, so to safely handle the new higher faster pressure curve of smokeless the loads had to be downloaded. In other words you can get more performance with BP than you can safley with smokeless. I reload several old west cartidges to their original specs and none of them are soft shooting by todays standards. Even a 38 long colt with 21grs FFF and a 158gr bullets gets your attention.
 
I have a small supply of the old balloon head .45 cases, about 200 of them, and with a full load of 40 grains Swiss FFF, a 250 grain lead bullet will chrono nearly 1000 fps out of a 7 1/2" barrel. Other brands of BP that I've tried all will top 900 fps. Insane "Ruger and Contender only" loads of H110 will top this, but at substantially higher pressures. A 250 grain bullet out of a handgun at 900-1000 fps a hundred and thirty years ago was big medicine, indeed, and still pretty damn impressive even today.
 
I've been shooting black powder for 40 plus years and reloading for nearly that long but I have done little reloading WITH black powder. My few attempts were disappointing, I believe due primarily to improper bullet/lube issues. Anyway, I just ordered a Uberti .45 long colt and I intend to shoot black out of it. I need to buy a bullet mold which will throw a bullet that holds enough lube to work with black. Any suggestions? What is the volume of 3F I can expect to get into a modern solid head case?

Steve
 
Steve,

I have had very good luck with the following:

Starline brass

CCI 215 primer

35 grains (weight) Swiss or Shutzen 2F or your prefered brand of black powder

Lyman 454190 cast pure or no harder then 1:20 tin/lead, Sized .454 and lube with SPG
Steve, this bullet is one of the old Ideal Tool Co. designs thats dates back to when BP was the only powder. It's old as dirt and works fantastic when paired with a good BP bullet lube, soft lead and good quaility powder.

I use a spare expansion die and plug to compress the powder. Its not much compression and you really don't need too but I don't like taking the chance of distorting the bullet at all.

Crimp over ogive 1.6 OAL

This load pretty much duplicates the original comercial loads. Using the Swiss powder it will exceed it.
 
Thanks a lot, Fred! I just got a call from my gunshop 10 minutes ago that the pistol is in, now gotta go get a permit. I'll order that mold. Thanks again.

Steve
 
Have I gotten it right?

If you want to move 250 gr of lead out of a .45LC revolver, then:

800 – 900 fps is “normal” smokeless loads if you want to shoot Colt SAA (3. gen.) or similar clones.

1200 – 1300 fps is “insane ruger” or “hunting” smokeless load.

And little short of 1000 fps is max black powder load.

One more question:

What is max fps in smokeless if you use Colt SAA (3. gen.) or similar clone? (Again 250 gr lead)

Thank you for your answers so far.
 
I've been using 250 grain " cowboy" machine cast bullets at about 870 fps from a 4 3/4" USFA. Right now, I get this with 7.5 grains but this sees to vary with every can of the New Cleaner Burning Unique I pick up. A lot of people have gone to titegroup. This hits to my sights at 25 and fifty yards and groups very well. You might get a little more velocity from a longer barrel but my short USFA is pretty "fast' and actually matches a few 7.5 inch colts and uberti's for velocity.

I don't load cartridge black powder but did do some experimention with some old .44 special black powder loads. Results here:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/44special.htm
 
I know from what little experience I have that using a proper BP lube, and plenty of it, is critical for BP shooting. Most of your reloader's bullets come with some sort of lube on them, but it's for smokeless powder. It won't work properly for BP or for BP subs.

However, American Pioneer Powder claims it works best with smokeless lubes only. I haven't tried it yet.

I think you have the relative velocities of standard smokeless, insane smokeless, and BP loads about right. The old .45 Colt was a real thumper in the blackpowder days. Still is, but it was crazy powerful for the 19th Century, using black powder of course.

Your max FPS for smokeless is going to vary depending on which smokeless. According to the Lee reloading manual-- the only one I have within arm's reach at the moment-- "start here" level loads run from 687 fps to 892, while "never exceed" loads get as high as 946. That's for a lead 250 grain. The classic Unique load people have been using for years and years runs 850.

A side note: I gather that black powder varies a lot. Most of what's available these days is low quality compared to military grade in the 19th Century. I gather that much of the smoke and fouling problems people have with BP come from the BP not being of the best quality.

Therefore, if black powder were made to 19th Century military standards, there would be less pressure to use black powder substitutes. But the main reason for BP subs would still apply. That reason is shipping and handling.

Whatever they tell you about how great BP subs are-- and they're pretty good, really-- the real reason for their success is that they aren't as touchy to store and transport as true black powder is. In a disaster, they respond more like smokeless powder than true BP. A really, really hot fire, but less chance of a major explosion.

When I was young and foolish, I touched off some small charges of smokeless and of BP to learn the difference. (They were SMALL charges-- even when I was young, I wasn't foolish enough to touch off large ones!) The smokeless burned nicely. Pretty purple-white flames! The BP went PHOOOOOFFF! and burned my eyebrows off. That, I think, is a pretty good illustration of why smokeless is easier to handle in disaster situations than BP is. :D
 
Steve, you dont need a special mold to shoot BP from a revolver I use regular of the shelf lazer cast and meisters with no problem, but you will have to pan lube them. By trickling in the powder you can load up to 40grs with a 250gr without overdue stress on the press.

Plato, I've seen smokeless data allegedly safe for SAA's up to around 1050fps in 45colt but I wouldnt recomend it honestly. Remeber the 45colt works off its weight and diameter rather than velocity. Although 1200-1500fps is a substantial improvement in the 454 casull, 100fps isnt really in 45colt. 900fps will kill damn near anything yet be totally safe for the gun.
 
Thank you for very informative replies to my newbie questions.

I really have to try it out some day. I think there is a club somewhere around here where I can get some help getting started – I don’t want to learn the really hard way.:o

Who knows maybe I’ll be Black Powder Plato one of these days? It sure would be fun to make a smoke cloud of my own.:D

Thank you.
 
Um, if you can get higher performance out of BP like you say timothy75, then why does everyone use smokeless now? You can get far BETTER performance using smokeless than using BP. With smokless you can control the burn rate. The whole "high peak pressure" thing was from the time before burn rates where properly understood, deterrent coatings where developed, and metallurgy that could handel the higher burn temperatures of smokeless caught up to the needs. You only have a dangerously high peak pressure with smokeless if you load with the wrong powder or the wrong ammount of powder.

Black powder loads can easily generate high peak pressure because BP has a very fast burn rate. With smokeless you can stay close to that peak pressure over a longer period of time.
 
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