So I went to the range with my my new TC Pro Hunter using Black Horn 209 and Winchester 209 primers. I started using 80 grains of powder and did not have powder ignition. Went up to 100 and got about 4 or 5 shots out of it till i stopped getting powder ignition. It was frustration so I decided I would sight it in at a later date. My first thought is the winchesters just wouldn't due to not burning hot enough. Also could the primers be bad, I got an audible pop with all of them? Thoughts?
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Black Horn 209 not firing with Winchester 209s?!?!
- Thread starter cgbills
- Start date
would suspect that it is the primers even their website recomends standard shotgun primers and states muzzleloading primers may not provide reliable ignition.
have never used blackhorn 209 but if the nipple passages is clean and the primer is going off would suspect the powder just requires hotter ignition and you would likely have no problem with pyrodex or triple 7 igniting with the winchester primers.
have never used blackhorn 209 but if the nipple passages is clean and the primer is going off would suspect the powder just requires hotter ignition and you would likely have no problem with pyrodex or triple 7 igniting with the winchester primers.
simonkenton
New member
I think CCI primers are hotter.
If worse comes to worst, you could put a couple grains of Pyrodex, or black powder in first, then put the Blackhorn on top of that.
If worse comes to worst, you could put a couple grains of Pyrodex, or black powder in first, then put the Blackhorn on top of that.
Wild Bill Bucks
New member
Haven't used any Blackhorn, but if is as good as the hype, I'm sure any quality #209 primer will set it off. I would be more concerned, that my ignition hole is partially clogged, or the ignition hole is not big enough. Try running a nipple pick through it, and see if there might be a clog. The amount of powder in the load shouldn't have anything to do with a failure to ignite. The powder should ignite with 10 grains or 100 grains if everything with the rifle is all right.
It could possibly be a bad batch of primers, but I use Winchester and CCI primers, and I buy them by the cases for re-loading, and I don't get one bad one out of every 2000 or 3000 rounds.
It could possibly be a bad batch of primers, but I use Winchester and CCI primers, and I buy them by the cases for re-loading, and I don't get one bad one out of every 2000 or 3000 rounds.
I agree to try hotter primers.
Other issues that have interfered with ignition of Black Horn 209 is that an adequately tight fitting sabot is required for all of the pressure to develop or else it can sound to be weaker powered.
Another known issue is that with some breech plugs (some Knight models in particular) the flash channel is too small which doesn't allow ample flash through to ignite the powder. The fix is to nominally enlarge the flash channel incrementally until certain ignition is achieved. A private party has been working on an aftermarket plug so the Knights can be more easily upgraded to reliably ignite BH209.
But first try the hotter primers. The weaker primers are desirable for using 777. But sometimes one primer will work well igniting BH209 and another brand just won't work for unknown reasons. They should be tested in each gun to be certain, but using full strength primers is not usually an issue. BH209 is truely a smokeless powder which is why it burns so completely when properly ignited.
Please read this fully updated report listing the relative strengths of many different 209 primers and which primers seem to work best with BH 209:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/technical3.html
Other issues that have interfered with ignition of Black Horn 209 is that an adequately tight fitting sabot is required for all of the pressure to develop or else it can sound to be weaker powered.
Another known issue is that with some breech plugs (some Knight models in particular) the flash channel is too small which doesn't allow ample flash through to ignite the powder. The fix is to nominally enlarge the flash channel incrementally until certain ignition is achieved. A private party has been working on an aftermarket plug so the Knights can be more easily upgraded to reliably ignite BH209.
But first try the hotter primers. The weaker primers are desirable for using 777. But sometimes one primer will work well igniting BH209 and another brand just won't work for unknown reasons. They should be tested in each gun to be certain, but using full strength primers is not usually an issue. BH209 is truely a smokeless powder which is why it burns so completely when properly ignited.
Please read this fully updated report listing the relative strengths of many different 209 primers and which primers seem to work best with BH 209:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/technical3.html
The downside of Blackhorn 209 is that it is harder to ignite than any other black powder substitute. In most modern No. 209 primer ignition muzzleloaders, the hotter the primer used the better. And two of the most favored primers have been the CCI 209M and the Federal 209A. Now, the granules of Blackhorn 209 are somewhat unique looking...for a muzzleloader powder. They are short-cut extruded granules, with a single hole running through the center. And there's something about the cellulose base and configuration of the granules that seem to prevent the higher pressures of "magnum" strength primers from pushing the enitre load forward before the charge ignites....
...Another primer, which is not a "magnum" primer, that has given stellar performance with Blackhorn 209 has been the Remington STS primer.
Last edited:
Poodleshooter
New member
From that article: How exactly does it keep the powder from kicking forward at ignition,if it's already a slow igniter? I would think that would be projectile fit dependent. The way to keep it from pushing forward prior to ignition is to either have a tighter projectile fit,or to simply get a powder that ignites faster.
In a T/C Black Diamond that I'm playing around with right now, a Winchester 209 primer in an accidentally still wet bore will actually blow an entire 777 charge and a 360gr minie nearly 2" up the bore just from the force of the primer alone. I'd be surprised if there's any charge that a 209 can't handle.
Thanks for posting that article articap; it's an interesting read. I'm going to play around with musket caps vs 209s this afternoon,to see if I can eke better accuracy out of (loose powder)777.
In a T/C Black Diamond that I'm playing around with right now, a Winchester 209 primer in an accidentally still wet bore will actually blow an entire 777 charge and a 360gr minie nearly 2" up the bore just from the force of the primer alone. I'd be surprised if there's any charge that a 209 can't handle.
Thanks for posting that article articap; it's an interesting read. I'm going to play around with musket caps vs 209s this afternoon,to see if I can eke better accuracy out of (loose powder)777.
From that article: How exactly does it keep the powder from kicking forward at ignition,if it's already a slow igniter? I would think that would be projectile fit dependent.
I agree that the tight sabot fit is part of it, and Bridges speculates that the make-up of the granules promotes faster ignition too, along with the hotter primers. Especially the Remington STS primer which produces a hotter spark without the increased pressure of the magnum 209 primers.
It's seems to be a combination of things that when loaded right performs relatively flawlessly for precision shooting with a modern inline.
Winchester 209 primers should be firing that BlackHorn every time. It may be a crudded up breech plug: Happens pretty often with Encores. Make sure that the hole under the primer orfice in the breech plug is clean. Take a 1/8" drill bit and turn it with your fingers to get the crud out of the plug. Do not attempt to drill out the small flash hole.
"...it maybe a crudded up breach plug, but this was the very FIRST time firing the weapon..."
Wel, the 1/8" drill bit trick may still help -- if it's new, it could very well have been clogged with packing/rust preservative grease...
Can you see daylight at the muzzle when peaking through the flash hole of the breech plug??? You should be able to do so...
Good luck,
Old No7
sourdough44
New member
1. Get some CCI mag 209's
2. Get a set of welding tip cleaners to keep that BP hole clear & clean.
3. Firmly seat the projectile(250grn SST for me)on the powder so all is firm.
4. Go get that buck.(after sight-in of course)
2. Get a set of welding tip cleaners to keep that BP hole clear & clean.
3. Firmly seat the projectile(250grn SST for me)on the powder so all is firm.
4. Go get that buck.(after sight-in of course)
andrewstorm
Moderator
blk horn +209 = fizzle................
I second the motion,that you should obtain some cci 209 mag primers,and store them in a zip lock untill needed,I too had ignition problems with winchester primers, the 777 variety,but no failures with the cci mag 209 .
I second the motion,that you should obtain some cci 209 mag primers,and store them in a zip lock untill needed,I too had ignition problems with winchester primers, the 777 variety,but no failures with the cci mag 209 .