Bizarre gunshop "law" RE: pocket holsters

D

Dizzipator

New member
After abandoning one local gunstore after being told a striker action pistol was double action only, just a different kind, I meandered over to one of my other local shooter's emporium.

I've been looking for a small piece, something that will fit in a pocket for full-time carry, sometimes as a backup, sometimes as a first weapon.

When I asked about what they had in stock that would be small enough to use in a pocket holster, something that would break up the outline of the weapon, I was confronted with the following bizarre advice:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those are illegal. Anything that changes the appearance of the gun to make it look like something else makes the gun into an "AOW" or Any Other Weapon.[/quote]

He claimed that this was based upon an ATF rule, not a CT statute.

When I told him that his opinion sounded wrong, he fell into robot mode and simply said that they were illegal, his shop didn't sell them, and that if I used one I was risking federal prosecution.

He was, of course, unable to cite a statute, rule or written opinion on this matter. Strangely, also, he failed to mention that an AOW could be registered for a measly $5, if it realy were an AOW. My question would have been "Do I really need to register a piece of leather?"

So, two up, two down. I am going to return to my normal shop tomorrow, where their inventory might be small, but at least they are technically and legally astute.

Thoughts?
 
That "AOW" sounds more like disguising a weapon as something else. Say if you had a firearm which was made to resemble a cell-phone, or another innocuous-looking item. That clerk may have simply misunderstood the law.
 
Cane guns probably fall into this catagory.

------------------
Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
The shop owner's right. Installing a derringer or other small pistol into a wallet-holster immediately transforms it into an AOW.

If you want one, it's gonna cost you $200 for the "manufacturing" tax stamp. After that, it's a $5 transfer tax.

There was a big writeup on it a coupla years ago in Small Arms Review.
 
He's half right. Bogie, I disagree....where's Lou Alessi when we need him? There are certain pocket holsters that allow you to shoot from the holster. (ie: there's a hole that exposes the trigger). An ATF Rule declared these to be in the same category with (?) Class weapons.

A normal pocket hoster is as legal as a belt holster under your jacket. Bet the clerk was mid twenties and knew all about politics and rocket science, too. ;)
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited November 16, 2000).]
 
there was indeed a note in an "American Guardian" some time back saying exactly the same thing -- that a pocket holster was somehow AOW. As to whether it's true or not, no idea.

My advice -- http://www.tandyleather.com/

Now a hand-made piece may not be as purty as a fancy specialist-bought one, but you know if you do it right, it'll fit perfectly.

[ahem... following Bogie's adivce on legalisms, of course..bother.]


[This message has been edited by Kaylee (edited November 16, 2000).]
 
Moral of the story: Don't believe every D!ck who opens his cake hole.


------------------
o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
 
I got the following from the BATF's question and answer document:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A few examples of "any other weapon" are:
H&R Handyguns;
Ithaca Auto-Burglar guns;
Cane guns; and,
Gadget-type firearms and "pen" guns which fire fixed ammunition.[/quote]

I know what all of these are except for the "H&R handyguns". What the heck is an H&R Handygun?

Also, I found the following in an ATF bulletin from August of 1997
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>WALLET GUNS
ATF has received numerous inquiries regarding wallet guns and wallet holsters.

As defined in section 5845(e) of the National Firearms Act (NFA), the term “any other weapon” includes certain concealable weapons. Various types of disguised weapons such as cane guns, belt buckle guns, and briefcase guns (with remote control firing mechanisms) fall within the “any other weapon” category. It is unlawfil to make, possess, or transfer such firearms without complying with the provisions of the NFA.

During the 1970’s, ATF determined that various small handguns combined with certain “wallet holsters” fall into the “any other weapon” category and are subject to the provisions of the NFA. These wallet holsters are generally rectangular in shape, are designed to disguise the appearance of the handgun, and are designed to allow the weapon to be fired while it is contained within the wallet. The handgun combined with the wallet holster constitutes an NFA firearm.

A conventional pistol or revolver which is possessed without the wallet holster would not be an NFA firearm. A wallet holster alone is not subject to NFA controls and cannot be registered or transferred as a firearm. Firearms contained in conventional holsters, trouser pockets, purses, gun cases, or various other forms of carrying cases have not been determined to fall within the definition of an “any other weapon,” even though it maybe possible to discharge a firearm while it is carried in such a manner.

In order for an individual to lawfully “make” a wallet gun, that is to say, acquire both the handgun and the wallet holster, the person must first submit an Application to Make and Register a Firearm (ATF Form 1), pay a $200.00 making tax and receive approval of the application. The serial number appearing on the handgun should be used to register the firearm. Transfer of a wallet gun requires an approved transfer application and payment of a $5 transfer tax. A transfer will not be approved unless the wallet gun has been registered to the transferor.

Mere sale or possession of the wallet holster without the handgun is not a violation of the NFA. However, 18 U.S.C. section 2 provides that a person who aids or abets another person in the commission of an offense is also responsible for the offense. Therefore, sale or distribution of a wallet holster with knowledge that it will be used to make an unregistered NFA firearm may also place the seller or distributor of the holster in violation of the NFA.[/quote]

So, my question regarding this becomes "What is a wallet holster?" Is there a difference between a pocket holster that merely positions the weapon and a "wallet" holster that actually conceals the entire weapons outline?

Arrrrrrgh!

[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited November 16, 2000).]
 
So my hi-std 22mag and wallet holster bought boo coo years ago would be considered an aow?..........and subject to nfa.....imagine that........glad i never assembled it...put pistol holster together as then it would be subject to that act...........fubsy.
 
More digging has revealed the following in the tax code under US CODE, chapter 26, section 5845:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Sec. 5845. Definitions

For the purpose of this chapter -

(e) Any other weapon

The term ''any other weapon'' means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person

from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive,

(having a smooth bore)

(long barreled weapons over 12 inches, but under 18 inches that can fire shotgun shells)

(If deactivated but able to be restored to working condition)

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores,

or

weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
[/quote]

Of course this gets more interesting because this section does not define "pistol or a revolver".

Yet another Arrrrrgh! And I still don't know what a wallet holster is versus a pocket holster. And how about those bags that ladies can carry their guns in at the ready?

[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited November 16, 2000).]
 
Dizzipator, there you go, answered your own question. Your dealer was wrong, pocket holsters are legal provided the gun cannot be fired while in the holster (ATF: are designed to allow the weapon to be fired while it is contained within the wallet) or do not disguise the fact that what you have is a handgun (ATF: are designed to disguise the appearance of the handgun).

The H&R Handy-Gun is a 'smooth bore pistol' with an 8" or 12" barrel and as other SBP's are subject to the $5 AOW transfer fee. The rifled versions are not restricted.
 
Jeff OTMG

That is what I figured, but I just wanted to do a reality check. Also, thanks for letting me know what a "handy gun" is.

I had a hard time believing that pocket holsters could be so widely sold and distributed if they were potentially placing buyers in violation of the law.

I am beginning to think that somebody back in 1997 made a holster that looked entirely like a wallet, not just something that broke up an outline of the gun, but actually looked like a mans pocket wallet.

I wonder what this all means to manufacturers that make those "day planner" organizers. Do they make a gun look like a day planner?

Arrrrrrgh! Why can't we just be free?

[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited November 16, 2000).]
 
The 'wallet holster' was made by Galco at one time. Looked like a wallet with a hole in it so you could reach the trigger. They made it for the High-Standard derringer and the little Beretta auto, possibly others. It doesn't matter if the gun is completely covered as on the day planner from Strictly Anything, it is like a gun case. The pistol cannot be fired from inside the planner, you must open it. If there was a mechanisms to fire it from within the planner then it would qualify. An example of that are the briefcases that will hold a MAC or HK MP5K. The guns can be shot while still in the briefcase so the case with even a semi auto MAC or SP89 is still classified as an AOW.
 
Pocket holsters are completely legal as long as the firearm cannot be fired while in the holster. All legal pocket holsters that I know of cover the trigger area and prevent the firearm from being fired in the holster.
 
EOD Guy has it right.

I recommend anchoring any pocket holster to the bottom of your pocket so that it drops clear of the gun on draw.

North American Arms used to have this problem. They still sell pocket holsters but they've published the BATF letter that caused them to cease producing their WALLET holster here:
http://www.naaminis.com/walholst.html

Jim
 
Breaking up outline

Your gunstore clerk seems VERY confused about concealable holsters, wallet ones in particular. The AOW issue has to do with being able to shoot the gun while in the holster, otherwise your carry devices can be just about anything.

As far as breaking up the outline, what holsters don't break up the outline of a firearm? All do it either totally or partially. Technically, all holsters would be illegal because they change the appearance of the gun contained within, as would the cases the guns come in, boxes, or any other container that conceals the weapon. The whole purpose of concealable holsters is to hide the gun and part of what these holsters do is to break-up the outline.

A little information is dangerous in the hands of someone with a little mind.
 
Dizz,

The H&R Handygun is a lot like the Ithaca Auto Burglar gun, only a single barrel single shot.

It's got a pistol grip and, I believe, a 12" or so barrel for most of them. They were chambered pretty much in .410, but I THINK that there were some 20-gauge models around as well.
 
Thank you everyone for responding.

All I can hope is that our discussion here somehow leaks back to the fool that gave me that advice in the first place. I can only hope that the close-minded gun shop clerk will someday learn how to process conflicting data by applying critical thought to a set of facts.

I will not, of course, be holding my breath on this one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top