Big slow bullets at long range

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ligonierbill

New member
All relative, so I'll define big as >250 gr and long range as >400 yd. And slow as <2,500 fps. Assuming I'm carrying a rangefinder, and I know the trajectory, and I'm a good shot, I should be able to plunk a critter out there.

Now, 400 is my personal limit, and I did once drop an elk at that range, but I was shooting a new fangled magnum knock 'em dead. I know there are folks working with the old buffalo gun rounds. Read about the famous shot with a 50-70 Gov't at Adobe Walls. But I'm thinking 20th century, the "only" 111 year old 9.3x62.

What do you think?
 
It can be done. If you know the exact range and are using a scope with either dials or dots on the reticle it is a lot easier. But you'll still need to practice.

The development of modern optics and range finders have made the need for flat shooting loads far less important. That and the high BC bullets we now have. One of the high BC 200 gr bullets fired from a 30-06 hits harder at 300 yards than a conventional 180 gr bullet fired from a 300 magnum, and has energy to kill game at double that range. It'll drop a little more, about 4" more at 300. But with modern optics that is easily overcome.

The problem is that there aren't any high BC bullets in 9.3 or 35 caliber. It doesn't have to be a magnum, but 30-06, 338-06 or even 308 can be loaded with heavy for caliber high BC bullets and provide much more killing power down range than most people think.
 
IF you have practiced on the range and you KNOW animal behavior, sure. It takes more patience and more knowledge in a different skillset than stalking close, but I enjoy them both.

My limits are based on energy. I have some thresholds based on the bullet, the game and the energy that beyond that point, I do not even consider it.

Just remember, the higher the ARC, the more precise you have to be with your wind calls and range. Think about time of flight, and what that animal might do between firing and arrival at the target. To me, that is the biggest concern and why I rarely post how far I shoot game. It takes a lot of knowledge of your quarry and knowing behavior to be able to decide when a shot is ethical.
 
Just ran the ballistics and a 286gr 9.3 bullet at 2360fps(hornady factory load) when sighted in at 200yards will have 35" of drop at 400yds. A 10mph crosswind will move that same bullet 18" st 400yds. It can certainly be done just make sure you can read the wind properly.
 
In fact, the Hornady 286 is what I tested a couple weeks ago. Very accurate, and mine go a little faster, but won't make a great difference. A 9.3 Accubond 250 has a BC of 0.494, but I haven't been able to find any. By contrast, a. 338 AB has a 0.575 BC, and of course the magnum starts them faster. I load GameKings, almost as sleek at 0.565. It is unfortunate that no one is selling a high BC 275 for the old German. If I take her out, I might have to limit the range. Always a good idea in any case. At my age, the coyotes are likely to eat it before I get there if I shoot too far.
 
286gr 9.3 bullet at 2360fps(hornady factory load) when sighted in at 200yards will have 35" of drop at 400yds
Click to expand...

Got me curious, so I ran the same numbers, at 375 and 425 yds it has 29" and 44" of drop respectively.
 
emcon5-I think you nailed the key consideration here.

Thanks for looking up numbers and answering the question you posed earlier.
 
.510 Whisper
750 grain Amax subsonic suppressed at 1050 fps
Similar energy to a .300 Win Mag at 600 yards, makes a hole the size of a truck and the critter will never hear it coming
 
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Use soft well made bullets (Woodleighs?). I got a cow elk two years ago at 225 yards with my 500 Jeffery (570g bullet at 2300 fps). She didn't get up. The drop being such with my 500, I wouldn't take a shot longer than 300 yards, but I tend to hunt the black timber anyway.
 
Just my opinion:
I might possibly believe that Billy Dixon killed
and Indian on horse back at a mile with his own
rifle but with a borrowed rifle I would have to have been
there to even consider it.
 
There's nothing quite as slow and heavy as an arrow.
But in the right hands, some mighty long shots can be made.
It's less about the gun and ammo than the shooter.
I tend to categorize these kind of questions as "It all depends." :)
 
Re Billy Dixon, he apparently downplayed the shot himself. He was lobbing bullets and hit with his third shot. I read one version that he knocked a guy off his horse and broke his arm. Could be the horse spooked and threw him. Who knows, maybe a Sharps salesman started it.
 
I like your choice of caliber.I've been tinkering with a Krag.
I know nothing about African hunting,but I have read that the 2300 to 2400 fps velocity range was very effective.
I think in part because its easy to have a cup and core bullet succeed at that velocity.
My Nosler book shows a 286 gr partition launched at 2400 with RE 15.

Here is where I will suggest moderation on your range..just a little.

At the time of those cartridges,folks mostly used iron sights.Maybe up to a 4x scope.
But mostly irons.That cartridge has a good 300yd trajectory.
Rangefinder? Ballistic card ? Kestrel, Sure!! We have advanced our long range capability to hit.You can use the numbers and hit at longer ranges.
But another limitation is bullet performance if you want a clean kill.

At 400 yds,your target is "boiler room" .It takes some velocity to get disruptive in there.I think about 2000 fps is where "temporary cavitation" actually causes trauma.
A phone call to Nosler should get you an idea of the lowest velocity you can expect performance .That load would have 2000 fps at 300 yds.

I look at the never ending handgun caliber war.
Doctrine d'jour,at handgun velocities,temporary cavitation does not produce significant trauma.Its about penetrating organs.You could use a piece of pipe and produce the wound. 9mm,40,45,pretty much the same.
But get up into rifle velocity,temp cavitation does turn lungs to soup and heart to stew meat.

I don't know exactly where the limits are,but,seat of the pants guess,I'd feel confident with the 2000 fps + performance to 300 yds. Shades of grey after that.
 
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Does a 570g A-Frame at 2300 fps count as big and slow :) Got a cow elk two years ago at 225 yards, only held 6" high (I sight in 2.5" high at 100 yards).
 
post 9 is to show you that the big assed bullet at 1050fps will kill at 600 yrds, but you had better have the range down pat to the yard as it will be dropping like a rock. i shoot a 525 postal bullet at 1300fps out of a 45-70 and useing a 3.5" staff on a hadley tang sight and at 800 yards the bullet is just about comming down nose first. eastbank.
 
I got a Leupold scope with the CDS dial on it. It is programmed for a 550 grain bullet at 1025 FPS. The dial I got is single turn only so it will not go as far as your asking but they make dials with more turns. I would guess you could get one easily that goes out to 400. Mine goes to 320 and that is with a bullet that is much slower than you are asking about.

p.s. This is for a suppressed 45-70
 
When you're shooting at game at long distances, you should take time of flight into consideration. If the animal can move enough to spoil the shot between the time the decision to pull the trigger is made and the time the bullet arrives then it doesn't matter how accurate the rifle/ammo/shooter combo is, nor how precisely the range is measured and the trajectory known, now how well the shooter compensates for the wind.

This becomes especially critical with lower velocities.
 
When you're shooting at game at long distances, you should take time of flight into consideration. If the animal can move enough to spoil the shot between the time the decision to pull the trigger is made and the time the bullet arrives then it doesn't matter how accurate the rifle/ammo/shooter combo is, nor how precisely the range is measured and the trajectory known, now how well the shooter compensates for the wind.

This becomes especially critical with lower velocities.
Click to expand...

That has already been mentioned.
 
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