Big reason to choose anything over 45

B

bdog

New member
Personally I feel that 9mm, 40, 45, 357 sig will all do the job if I need to use them in a defensive situation. The ballistics of all these have been beat to death and this has nothing to do with them.

Earlier I was at the range and several people had different guns (mostly Glocks) in 9mm, 40, 45, and 357 Sig. It was dark and we fired several different duty loads through each gun to compare the muzzle flash. With everything but the 45 the flash was almost non existent. In the 45 several different types of ammo, including gold dot, golden saber, and one other which I can't remember were fired. It looked like a freaking flame thrower. With the other calibers you could shoot and not lose night vision or brightly illuminate yourself as a target, but the 45 was orders of magnitude brighter that the others. You completely lost night vision after seeing the muzzle flash. Maybe there is some other type of ammo that is better, but from what I saw I would not want to be using a 45 if I was shooting in low light situations.
 
I've heard from a very reliable source the .357SIG is a "flame thrower" also. Strange you didn't get that impression from that round as well.

The .45 does lite it up a bit, but thats a lot of powder to push a big ass bullet!

TFW

[This message has been edited by TheFederalistWeasel (edited October 22, 2000).]
 
The 357 sig that was shot was an HK using black talon ammo. It had probably the least flash of them all. I was surprised as well.
 
I might add that I like the 45. I was going to buy either a Glock 30 or 36, but now I am having second thoughts.
 
FWIW, my .357SIG G33 redefines the term "flamethrower" with Federal. Gold Dots aren't as bad, but still quite noticeable.

It doesn't seem to be one of those almost-xenon-flash-white flames that leaves your retinas done over-easy, rather a dull orangey-yellow that doesn't wipe out night vision unless you're in total pitch black. (in which case one probably wouldn't be shooting anyway, come to think of it...)

------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Could you elaborate on what ammunition was used in the .45 to get this amount of flash?

If it was 185gr. or 165gr. loads, then flash is to be expected.

For what its worth, I don't notice any flash when using 230 gr. loads
 
357sig Blacktalon ????? were do you get that stuff? never heard that 357sig was made in the blacktalon load?
 
I think the 45's were 185 & 230 grs. About the 357 sig, it was not my gun and that is what I remember the shooter telling me. I kmow for sure that he had some black talons because I remember him talking about how mmuch he had to pay for them, and I am pretty sure they were for the 357 sig, but they could have been for his 40. Keep in mind that this was not a scientific experiment with tight quality controls. It was just an informal thing to see how different ammo in different calibers performed at night.
 
What length bbl and so on for each gun, if you weren't using similar bbls on similar guns the test is moot. I've night fired my sig at night and never noticed any decrease in vision BUT my first duty gun was a .357 Mag. so maybe I'm happy not to have a the flash that thing would produce.
 
45 was glock 36, 40's were glock 23's, 9mm was a glock 19, 357 Sig was HK USP compact

[This message has been edited by bdog (edited October 22, 2000).]
 
I had the opposite experience. Back in August, at the EOSM, several of us shot my 1911's in near dark conditions. While there was some flash, it was definitely not a flame thrower.

More then anything, the flash is dependent upon the type of ammo you fire or type of powder you reload with.

I think a lot of the crap about your night vision being ruined muzzle flash is BS. Just about any firearm will have some form of flash. That is enough to ruin your night vision. Even if it's for a short term.

Just like the argument about comp guns for carry guns. Try shooting a comp gun at low light conditions. You will see that it will have no bearing upon your typical night vision if you shoot it properly.

*hint* the ball of flame doesn't form until it's several inches above the barrel. It won't affect you if you're shooting properly. More then anything, you should worry about the hot gases. OOps, I'm going off-topic. Sorry
 
I have done night drills with partner using Cor-Bon 200gr defensive .45 ammo and the flash was quite reddish and had little effect on night vision. I have had the same experience with Cor-Bon defensive in .38spec and .357mag.

Additives to the powder alter the intensity of the flash and the color; both important when considering the effect on night vision.

Thus....like Son said, twas the load and not the caliber that made the most diffference.

Sam....make mine long n lean, 9X32R.
 
The Glock 36 has a 3.5" barrel. ANY load is going to flare with that since you aren't burning all the powder. A 3" 9mm or .40 is going to be just as bad.
 
Well, if you're looking for a replacement flashcube, 8.4 grains of Accurate Arms #5 behind a 86gr Sierra RNSP lights things up pretty nicely in a 7.62x25 CZ-52! Just don't expect to find all your expensive Starline brass after it gets flung into the next county...

I've seen some flashy .45 ACP's, my 3.5" Caspian Officer's ACP did a darned good impersonation of the CZ-52 when I ran some of my buddy's 155gr VihtaVuori-fueled unlimited race gun loads through it. Just like Buzz stated, lotsa fuel exiting that short tube while still burning.
 
If you want pretty much the ultimae in muzzle flash ( at least using factory ammo) try firin any 22WMR load in an old Hi-Standard double action double derringer! I did once ( not in full dark, but in deep dusk ). For at least 30 seconds, ALLI could see was a false-color image of my forearm about halfway into a 2-foot diameter ball of fire!Actually this would be a good nite-time mugger defense load:momentarily clench your eyes shut tight while you fire the piece upward at a 45 deg between yourself and your mugger, then open your eyes and walk away while he stumbles blindly, or do whateve else seems " appropriate".
crankshaft
paranoid is what I intend to stay as long as THEY remain out to get me!
 
I had a different experience low light shooting. We were only using a .357 magnum, a SigPro .357sig and a G19.

All the guns had a flash to some extent but like yuou may have heard the .357sig was the flame thrower of the three, and I mean by a long shot!

Also like somebody else above stated. Sonce when did they start making .357sig ammo in the Federal Black Talon loads? If they make it I want some!

~Jason
 
House, Jason - The Win. Ranger SXT (non-black Black Talon)is avail for the .357 Sig., but a little hard to find. It's the brass-jacketed, six serration meplat, non-Lubalox talon bullet in nickel plated cases. It won the Secret Service contract for their .357 Sig load, tho I don't know if it's still in use by them. It shoots quite well, but I haven't paid enuf attention to the flash to make a reliable comparison with the other .357 Sig ammo I shoot. I paid $34/box of 50 for the first few I bought, and $16.50/box most recently. I can give you a source for the $34 stuff, but I don't expect to see it for $16.50 again anytime soon.
 
We go back to shooting our night matches here in Austin next weekend. We do these through out the winter. As an SO, I get to see all the different combinations. And Son hit it right on the head. It's not the calibur as much as it is the powder being used. I have seen some .45s light up the night. I have seen others give off less light than a cigar. I have also see the .357sig and the .40 S&W give me enough light to read a novel. Just for fun at the end, we run a stage with NO light other than the moon.

Interestingly, the muzzel flash has very little effect on the shooter's vision. I have actually shot a stage FASTER and more accurately with no light than I did WITH a light. The flash seems to have more effect on the folks around watching than the shooter himself.

I was in a night shoot with Jim Crews a while back shooting my Bushmaster AR-15 with the AK muzzle break. I was seeing and hitting just fine. The flash did not effect me at all. Crews stopped me and asked if I had ever seen the flash out of that gun. I had not. So he shot it while I watched. I was blown away. The flame must have been two feet long out of that gun. I looked down the line at the other guys shooting with other types of breaks and they didn't seem to have any flash at all.

My point being, that AR had more flash than you will EVER see out of any of your handguns. Yet, as the shooter, I did NOT know I even had a flash signature. My night vision remained unaffected. As Son mentioned, if you are shooting correctly, this may be a tempest in a tea pot as far as night vision is concerned.

Now.... the size of the flash pointing out your position to the bad guy.... that's another discussion. :)

Bubba
 
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