Big Cajones

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BrokenArrow

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This versus that! Ad nauseum...

Most of em work as well as you do, or don't.
Some fit our personal, subjective requirements better than others, but objectively, as tools, they all get the job done. Just don't pick a saw when you need a hammer! But there really isn't much difference among the hammers.

Why do many have the need to prove what they like is the best?

The FBI/DEA like Glocks and 1911s. The USN SEALs are buying more Berettas. The INS/Border Patrol, USPS, Veterans Dept likes em too. Secret Service likes SIGs. RCMP likes S&W. NYPD likes Glock, Chicago PD says no way! Glock is selling more than anybody by quite a large margin, but that does NOT mean they are better, just more popular.

All of em have warts, and I could give you horror stories about any make/model, or praise it to Heaven, flip a coin.




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Four reasons I can think of, in no particular order:

1. People considering a purchase don't want to spend $500+ on something they'll be dissatisfied with. This site has lots of oppinions to review and evaluate to aid in the decision making process. It's better than buying 10 gun magazines, and cheaper too.

2. People feel the need to defend their decisions. They also want to convince other people that they made the right decision to give them more security in their beliefs. Rarely will you find someone arguing for a piece of equipment that they don't own or for a technique they don't use.

3. A few people are actually in an honest search to find the best combination of equipment and technique for themselves. They admit they have made mistakes or misjudgements and they learn something new at every turn. If you recognize someone like this follow them and you'll learn a lot too. There's a cop I shoot with who is like this, and I have learned a great deal from him.

4. Many people love to argue for the sheer joy it brings to their lives. They could argue about butterfly classification or incense aromas. Guns just happen to be their current fancy. They get a little knowledge and become amazingly beligerent and abusive. These people are to be avoided and ignored.
 
Over the past 12 years, I have probably spent the price of a new SUV buying different types of pistols and revolvers to try them out for myself. A board such as this one would have helped me avoid a few bad choices along the way. I value what others have to say about their experiences with handguns to learn what works and what does not. I only ask that people make their objections to a particular model as specific as possible to aid my edification. Anyone new to the art of pistolcraft may be easily confused by the many products and conflicting claims. More information and argument may help someone decide more effectively, in my view.
 
Ah, marketing, create that brand distinction, even if no functional difference really exists.

Mr. Koski, you are an astute observer of the human need for validaton adn afinity.

Trevor, I haven't spent as much (but then again I haven't been at it as long). Being one of them armed liberals/libertarian,libertines, I don't have a whole lot of shooting buddies so I do my homework, seek knowledgeable people (this board has been a boon!), and then I place my bet and takes my chances. Ultimately, you learn to shoot by going shooting, not by talking about it (don't get me wrong, there's plenty here to learn about shooting, but it's the practice that turns explicit knowledge into tacit).

In the last 18 mos. I have purchase examples of SIG, H&K, Beretta, and Walther handguns. My first was a SIG 228, purchased on the recommendation of a good friend who is a Secret Service agent. It's still my favorite. I bought the PPK for emotional reasons - it's a handsome little devil (stainless with rosewood grips) and it's James Bond's gun, but it's nasty to shoot and not all that reliable. Most recent acquisition is an H&K USP45C, and I've been most impressed with it for a bunch of reasons.

I guess my point is, once you get past the basics - reliability, acceptable accuracy, and reasonable ergonomics, the measure of the machine is the pleasure it gives you to operate it, because if you like it, you'll practice with it and get better at it. If you're happy, I'm happy for you.

Good (and safe) shooting to all y'all. M2
 
Mike in VA,
You're absolutely right! I bought a PPK/s for the same reason. Beautiful little pistol, but sold it within months because it was such an unpleasant gun to shoot. Gave me a TERRIBLE flinch!

And THAT is a large part of why we post here. Either in favor of, or against. Two people with VEry similar experiance. This shows both of us that we are not the only ones with this problem, so maybe it's not us, maybe it's the gun
Yes, a hammer is a hammer. Would you rather have the Volkswagon hammer, the Lamborgini hammer, or the Kit hammer that looks like a Lamborgini but is really a Volkswagon?

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Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
Actually, in Arizona, we call 'em huevos (pronounced "wave - o's", roughly). ;)

I've gotten a lot out of some of the 'this vs. that' threads. Sure, there's a bit of bravado and bs sometimes, but usually I can begin to discern some common truths - 'duty' weapons tend to be reliable, 1911's are great if you're willing to train, Para's have the advantage of higher .45 capacity, and on and on. Many such 'facts' are not obvious when you're just starting out.

Like Steve's reason #1, I prefer to read all of the posts to get a clue regarding a firearm I'm unfamiliar with. Then, if I'm lucky, I can find it for rent at one of the nearby ranges. Or, I can at least spend some more time reading about the guns that appear to fit my needs and checking them out at gun shows and shops. Without the give and take on TFL, I'd have a much tougher row to hoe.

Perhaps for the members who are old hands at this these are just tiresome bs sessions. However, for folks like me with less experience, it's like spending hours around a campfire listening to old friends debate the relative merits of these tools. I like that a lot, and I hope to return the favors over time.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 12, 1999).]
 
Don't let me be misunderstood!

I was not referring to gathering info, but the bashing that goes like "I heard Beretta slides break" so they are junk, or "SIG frames crack", so they are junk, or "HK firing pins/pins break" so they are junk, or "Glock trugger springs break" so they are junk...

Ya know, that crap. :)

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BA,

Funny that this thread should be waiting for me. I was at *******, inc. (edited due to the nature of this thread ;)) this week and I was talking to thier PR/Media Relations guy at dinner. He and Ihave been friends for some time and he is aware that I have what he refers to as a "web presence".. he is also aware that I frequently discuss "internet myths" and other things with people who ask about them, akin to the infamous "Beretta slides break!" stories. He asked me to continue doing so, as it likely helps keep the level of gross ignorance on the internet down a little, but he asked me to deliver a message from him to the people who insist on spreading those stories and asking the same silly questions:

"Get a Life."

He really thinks it is silly that people spend so much time talking about such things. It reminded me of that Saturday Night Live episode about 10-12 years ago on which William Shatner was adressing a Star Trek Convention and broke down in the middle of it asking the attendees to "Move out of their mother's basements".

Personally, I think some of the A vs. B threads to deliver some good info. It is the people post crap that they have no clue about, that they read in the NY Times or on Rec.guns... those are the ones that make me shake my head.
Of course, I could be making all the crap I post up, so the lesson is this: Take everything with a grain of salt.. everything has spin.. everything is either an advocacy statement or an advertisment, Maybe for a Glocks, maybe for Point Shooting, maybe for sending $50 to get your name on an ad is USA TODAY, maybe for the Irlene Mandrell Celebrity Shoot, maybe for a Realtree Dipping process, maybe for The Firing Line, maybe...... ;)


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So why are "official" messages from the manufacturers not readily available to dispute all the internet idiocy? Beretta (Glock, whoever)could put a simple FAQ on the web page for example? Why not lurk on rec.guns etc and pounce on the crap with the truth? Sounds like what they pay marketing/PR people for in the first place? One wild rumour can undo thousands in advertising; one rebuttal would be worth more? Are there any legal pre-ban hicaps for the USP 45s? Are the firing pins breaking? Was there a bad run of parts? HK could settle that instantly. Same for the others.

Seems like they are missing golden opportunities to get out the real story, build some good PR at little expense? I've seen personal web pages w more info than most manufacturers offer?

Get a life? Get real! Lawyers and litigation are why they are soooo quiet...

Who wants to admit to a problem if they don't have to? Put something in writing that may bite them in the butt later? Probably been plenty cases settled out of court over slides, kBs, etc that have the gag rule imposed? :)

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No, BA.. think about it. If some guy from S&W showed up on Rec.guns, indentified himself as a company rep.. what do you think would happen?


Do think a FAQ would be believed or do you think it would be sdisputed.

No gun company should have to pay someone to field the question "Why can't I shoot Bean Bullets out of my Model 55?" seventy times a month.

All the information to cover 99% of the informational questions people ask on the internet is readily available and well documented. The problem/blessing is that everyone on the internet has an opinion above/beyond and often in direct opposition to those facts. Many of the questions, such as "9mm Vs 40" are simple opinion questions, it would serve no purpose for a Winchester rep to come onthe internet and explain the differences between 9mm and .40 cal bullets... that info has been published for years and people are still asking the question.

Lawyers and Litigation have nothing to do with the fact that the people at the gun companies take thier guns MUCH less seriously than many of the more dedicated fans out in the gun culture. (no, I don't mean they don't treat guns SERIOSULY, I mean they don't see that much value in diefying any inaminate object that is subject to design changes at any moment).

The PR/Promotions department people are paid to sell guns and keep ENTITIES (mags, TV, other companies) from spreading false information, not babysit gun enthusiasts.
 
>Do think a FAQ would be believed or do you >think it would be sdisputed.

Good point. Disputed. Just like evolution, and landing on the moon still is. :)

>Lawyers and Litigation have nothing to do with the fact that the people at the gun companies take thier guns MUCH less seriously than many of the more dedicated fans out in the gun culture. (no, I don't mean they don't treat guns SERIOSULY, I mean they don't see that much value in diefying any inaminate object that is subject to >design changes at any moment).

Amen to that!

Which is kinda what I meant with this thread in the first place! :)

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As someone guilty of launching a thread that led to this one, let me pass on my motivations. When I ask a this or that question I'm looking for answers from people who have a lot of experience with a given product. I'm not looking for someone to tell me they heard about a guy in vermont that had a cousin that read an article saying ABC pistols suck. Odds are I read it myself. I want the guy who fired 90,00 rounds through ABC pistol with only one recoil spring replaced, or the guy who put a thousand rounds through XYZ pistol but it went to the factory three times in the process.

I know when I pose the question I'm going to get several responses from people who just want an opinion recorded for posterity, but I also know that some folks are really gonna give me some info.
 
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