Big American Loads

S

Spectre

Staff Alumnus
Having been blessed with "an insatiable appetite and a restless mind", I began thinking about the REALLY big, old American cartridge loads- specifically, .45-100, .45-110, and .45-120.

Does anyone know load info on these? I see Old Western Scounger does offer loaded ammo in .45-110 and .45-120.

What I'd really like to do, is either see if these cartridges develop enough energy to take African dangerous game, or have a custom rifle made that can really allow these ancient cartridges to utilize more of their potential, much like the Marlin 1895 revolutionized the .45-70 (which, in turn, led to Winchester making them, then Ruger, etc).

Thanks!

[Edited by Spectre on 05-08-2001 at 10:46 AM]
 
Brass is expensive, and you have to be very fastidious with it to avoid corrosion. Most folks use Pyrodex CTG to load them. How would a modern rifle enhance their potential? Most of those are already beautiful long barreled rifles that allow maximum velocity from their cartridges. Putting them in a lever action with a 24" barrel would probably spoil the effect and lower velocity. That said, they could take American bison, so Cape Buffs might be possible, though a little on the big side. Don't know about much else. They have lots of penetration, but on rhino or elephant.....
 
Thanks for the reply. Do you have any sources for ballistics potential or load info?

I would never put these in a lever gun. Single, double, or custom Mauser bolt-action, yes. Lever, never. I only mentioned the 1895 because it was an example of a good platform bringing a fine but little-used cartridge back into vogue, with the potential that modern loads in stronger rifles can develop.
 
Strictly armchair opinion, okay?

The American bison were usually taken in open grasslands. The bison apparently weren't real bright about connecting sudden pain with the two-legs, and would run away rather than attack.

2,000 pounds of critter is 2,000 pounds, here or in Africa. What's different is the behavior--from my reading of books and stories.

The issue, then, is whether the buff, lion or whatever falls down dead before ruining the shooter's day. Hunting a lion or leopard from a hidden stand could probably work. For elephant of buffalo, I'd certainly want a ready escape route and a very good backup fella!

If black powder is to be used, I'm dubious that you could get the velocity to get even a 500-grain bullet "up to speed".

$0.02,

Art
 
They will probably do the job...

But they are not ideal. Like the .45-70 that I still stubbornly defend.

Using the three calibers you mentioned, here is a comparison of various .45 cal rifle cartridges. All are factory loads that were readily available at one time.

.45-100 Ballard -- 550 Lead @ 1370 fps -- 2300 ft/lb
.45-110 Sharps -- 550 Lead @ 1360 fps -- 2240 ft/lb
.45-120-31/4" Sharps - 500 Lead @ 1520 fps -2561 ft/lb

.450 No. 2 NE -- 480 SP @ 2175 fps -- 5050 ft/lb
.500/.450 Mag BPE - 325 SP @ 1950 fps -- 2745 ft/lb
.500/.450 Mag NE -- 480 SP @ 2175 fps -- 5080 ft/lb
.450 NE 31/4" -- 480 Lead @ 2150 fps -- 4930 ft/lb

.470 NE -- 500 Sp @ 2150 fps -- 5130 ft/lb

Figures are from 7th Edition Cartridges of the World.

I hate to admit it, but even the old Blackpowder Express cartridges leave the big Sharps cartridge lagging behind.

And as some one pointed out in a less than gentle fashion, my .45-70 and your longer .45's will not meet the minimum ft/lb requirements for some African countries.

Doc
 
Why stick to blackpowder?

I can load my Browning 78 .45-70 to .458 Winchester Magnum velocities, using 500 gr. cast bullets, by filling the case with IMR 3031, seating a NECO P-Wad over the powder, and breachseating the bullet. I had considered having it rechambered for .45-120, BUT descided that the recoil would be more fun than I wanted to have!

You can have Bowen Arms rechamber a Ruger #1 to .45-120, or .505 Gibbs for that matter, but, I'll bet that it would be more fun than YOU want to have. But, then again, you may be like some friends of mine, who think that they haven't had any fun if they ain't bleedin' when their done!


Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
Doc Hudson...

You amaze me! I did NOT know you even knew how to read. Now, I must reset my entire mindset about you...you ARE getting dangerous NOW.

Semper fi
JR
 
Howdy you old buzzard!

If you are gonna be incognito, you shouldn't sign off with your old moniker.

I sent you a couple of e-mails this morning. Get Miss Dee to help you with the hard words.

Doc Hudson :p
 
Doc...

Crap...I thought I was fully cammo'ed here. Dagnabit.
Now, I gotta put up with the crap you and Dee are gonna pull on me. Life t'aint fare. :)
 
How bout .50 - 140?

Dunno the ballistics on 'em, but do remember my dad shooting his when I was a kid. Wish he still had it. My job was to lug that octogonal-barreled howitzer around. Dad got to shoot it. :)
 
re: Why stick to blackpowder?

Thre are several reasons Fred.

1.- Blackpowder just smells so much better than the smokeless stuff.

2.- The cartridges Spectre asked about are blackpowder cartridges. I don't think any were ever commercially loaded with smokeless, so data will be scarce, and chances for catastropic error greatly magnified.

3. - In the vast volume of those old blackpowder cases, you need to pretty much fill them to get good ignition and consistent velocity. There are not many smokeless powders that will fill the case without blowing it up, probably would not be great for the gun or shooter either.

4. - In those big old cases, blackpowder provides the most consisten velocities. The only ammo I've ever chronographed that had single digit extreme spreads was a batch of .45-70 ammo I'd loaded with 65 gr. of Elephant FFg and one of my 510 gr. Semi Spitzer-FP's.

Red Label,

I don't know what load your Dad used, but factory loads for the .50-140-31/4" Sharps were:
700 Lead (often paper patched) @ 1355 fps -- 2850 ft/lb
473 Lead (Win. Express load) @ 1580 fps -- 2520 ft/lb


Spectre,

If you want a really hard hitting big bore repeater, get a Winchester M-1886 (original or new made) and rebarrel it to .50-110 or .50-100 Winchester.

In factory loads, Winchester used to load an express load that really packed a whollop.
300 gr. Lead @ 2225 fps -- 3298 ft/lb

Doc Hudson (All load data is from the 7th Edition of Barnes' Cartridges of the World.)
 
Don't get me wrong!

One Fall, I took my Browning 78 to one of our local turkey shoots. I took ONE case, a box of primers, a handfull of bullets, and a can of black powder.

After firing, I'd deprime the case, using a long finishing nail, and drop the case into a jug of soapy water. After agitating the water, removing the case and drying it thoroughly, I'd reprime it by tapping the case down onto a new primer with a wooden dowel. I'd then measure out 70 gr. of powder and seat a P-Wad over the powder. When my turn came to fire, I'd insert a greased bullet into the case and take my turn at the line.

After observing this procedure several times, one of the gentlemen with his Thutty-Thutty inquired as to why I "din't gess stop at Wal-mart and geechee a box of shells?"

"YA MEEN YA KIN GIT 'EM STOREBOTTEN!?" Was my reply.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
Doc,

Thank you for going above and beyond. I appreciate you taking the time to look those up. Art, your opinion is always valued, of course.

Red Label-in Pamper's words- I definitely feel that a .50-140 would be more fun than I could handle.

All: my challenge is power and recoil. Now, the modern .45-70 (at least, at the sedate velocities of the GA Arms load I've used) theoretically has 24 lbs or so of recoil. It most assuredly "moves" a lot, but it feels like less than my FR-8 (short-barreled .308). It has been said that the large-volume, long, straight cartridges give less perceived recoil. I am attempting to find a cartridge that will give me the power to smite down the mighty Cape Buffalo, while giving little enough felt recoil for me to gain the shooting ability to place the bullet where it needs to go, through the shoulders, or in the heart.

If any of these old plains cartridges could deliver the power, I would use one of them to level my planned future Buff. If not, I would consider having a custom double or magnum Mauser-actioned rifle made, with the intention of working up loads using the strong modern action and a bulky smokeless powder.

The power I am looking for is
530 grains @ 2200 fps, or
600 grains @ 2000

Yes, I can find a similar power level in extant cartridges like the .416's, or the .458, but I would like a large, relatively low-pressure round to distribute that ungodly recoil.

And, I've got the time to figure out how to get it.
 
Spectre,
Take a good long look at the .416 Rigby. Pressures are far lower than the Remington and Weatherby versions.

Recoil should be less also. The power and effectiveness of the .416 Rigby is said to be of legendary proportions.

I don't remember the numbers, but I remember a comparison of the .416 Rigby's recoil to other popular calibers. IIRC, recoil was less than the .375 H&H, and not a lot more than the .30-'06. If I can find the article, from a G&A Annual of the late 1980's, I will either post the figures of scan and e-mail you a copy of the article.

Doc Hudson
 
Had never seen a 416 Rigby until last weekend when I was at my local "candy store". Wow! What a cartridge! Safari ballistics, and yet I've seen Remington and Winchester rifles in that caliber for very reasonable prices (1K to 1.5K). The friggin box of shells cost $100. I can buy 250 .22LR shells for the price of ONE shell in .416 Rigby. Still... I've now added that beast to my list of guns that I will someday own. So many guns... so little time/money...
 
Spectre you said The power I am looking for is 530 grains @ 2200 fps, or 600 grains @ 2000
Yes, I can find a similar power level in extant cartridges like the .416's, or the .458, but I would like a large,relatively low-pressure round to distribute that ungodly recoil. And, I've got the time to figure out how to get it.

Not sure if I am understanding what you mean buy the "low pressure round to distribute recoil" part. Low pressure doesn't mean lower recoil. Fact is it will probably mean slightly greater recoil if bullet mass and velocity are kept even because lower pressure means you use more [usually] powder to get same velocity. At least if your talking smokeless powder.

In my Barnes reloading manual they list both 416 Rem and 416 Rigby. The lightest starting load listed for the rigby uses 92 grains of powder. The heaviest max load for the 416 Rem uses 81 grains of powder. The max loads for the Rigby are 96 to 104 grains. To figure recoil for a load you need to add weight of powder & bullet since both are being kicked out of the gun.

So if you want low recoil big bore go with a 416 Taylor [a 458 Win necked down to 416] or similar. Or use a good medium like one of the 338's, 358's [Norma or STA], 9.3's, or 375's...all of which can push 300 grain solid to at least 2400 fps.
Also your figures are equal to or higher than the 458 Lott at least with the 530 grain bullet [Lott should do 500@ 2300 fps].

If your using blackpowder cartridges with blackpowder you will be under 2000 fps and probably well under 1800 with most heavy bullets.

How did you come up with your criteria for ballistics?
Your the one that wants to use mediums for buff and now your talking true heavy ballistics. BTW Jeff Cooper's Baby chambered for the 460 G&A [404 Jeffery blown out to 458] is supposed to do around 2400 fps with 500 grain slug.

Might want to check this site out http://www.cordite.com/
They deal with big bores and have a BB.
 
Back to the "Big Americans"

Any of the "Big American" cartriges mentioned (.45-90 through .45-120) could be loaded to the power factors requested. In rifles like the Ruger #1, Browning 78/85, or other quality High Wall repros, will stand up to any reasonable smokeless load. They are, after all, hell for strong actions!

Developing a load won't be too difficult. I'd start with IMR 3031 or one of the other medium burning rate powders.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
That's what I wanted to know. I'm thinking actions might be a little easier to come by in the -110 length.

Glamdring, I would like to use a 9.3x64mm for nearly everything*. It may not be legal in some areas I wish to eventually hunt. So, I figure if I'm gonna go big...might as well go big, but if I can distribute the recoil into a long shove rather than a sharp punch, amen and glory.


*Of course, it would also be neat to take most of the dangerous game (I have no interest in hunting elephant; too much like hunting people) with a shotgun. I'd like to do that, too, someday! :D
 
Spectre: How about a 470 NE then? 500 grain @ 2150
Or you can get same ballistics, 500 @ 2150+, in Winchester's Custom safari bolt rifles in either 458 Lott or 470 Capstick [rimless round that is very close to 470 NE ballistics].

From what I understand with the exception of the 416 Rigby, which was a high velocity round with 400 grain@2400, most of the big bores for DG all sent bullets close to 500 grains at around 2150 fps. Unless you stepped up to the Super Heavies, the 577 & 600 NE.
 
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