betrayal by the House of Representatives

A

alan

New member
Some time today, The House passed this so-called emergency spending bill, a proposal that would continue funding of military operations in Afgahinstan and Iraq.

Interestingly, this proposal, from the way it was described, looks/sounds like a bunch of PORK, or might one describe it as a Christmassa Tree, which comes in two forms. One is a spruce type tree, a real tree, purchased for the Christman season, under which gifts are placed. The other is a pipe manifold, studded with valved branches, often used to control the flow of crude oil and or gas from well heads. Take your pick.

In any event, there are a bunch of "branches" on the tree that is this "emergency military spending bill", many of which have no particular connection with either the military or with emergencies. Chief amongst these, it seems to me is a piece of H.R. 418, now sitting in the Senate Judiuciary Committee, that provided "minimum standards" federal standards that is, for state issued drivers licenses and other types of state issued identification documents.

The Senate is scheduled to vote some time next week, and it looks as if THE FIX IS IN, drivers licenses will be twisted into something new and different, something they were never intended to be, National Identity Cards, a situation that I suspect, the down side of which is without end. Maybe, just maybe, if enough heat is brought to bear on the Senate, they might discover sufficient balls to trash this rider, I doubt it, but one never knows.

In any event readers, it might be that the end result lies in and with you. Do with the above what you will. I've already done as much as I can, absent physical violence, which would likely be self defeating, and which I likely would not advocate anyhow.

By the way, the latest TOLL FREE NUMBER FOR CAPITOL SWITCHBOARD is 1-866-220-0044. You can reach the D.C. offices of your own Senate Critters via this phonbe number. Their local office numbers are usually to be found in the telephone directories yiuy have at home or in your offices.
 
Alan the piece of legislation regarding minimum standards for drivers licenses that was attached to the Iraq bill has the effect of making a drivers license easily distinguisable between one held by an actual citizen and one held by an non citizen, legal or illegal. States can issue driving certificates to illegals, but the certificates must be clearly marked so that anybody looking at them will know that the holders are illegal aliens. Will it distinguish you as a citizen from an illegal, yes. Will it make life tougher on an illegal, very much so. For instance they are not acceptable as a means of id for air travel if its of the illegal alien variety. It may help cut down on identity fraud that is so easy to do by an illegal right now.

There was a massive out pouring of support for both this amendment and another offered by Sen Byrd which now stands at $297 million dollars that are transferred from the State Department to the Border Patrol.

I don't know where you stand on the invasion the country is under from illegal aliens but our representatives are begining to understand that the citizens of the country are not happy with the current situation.
 
UT, I agree with you that less is better. However, remember the 9/11 commission and one of the huge loopholes found was the driver's license issue. It is within the scope of the federal gov't to ensure state's maintain a common standard where national security is involved. And since aircraft are federally regulated, and boarding an aircraft requires ID (most use driver licenses), I believe this is a step in closing that loophole.
 
Breach, I agree with you on the substance of what your saying. Hell, I'm a pilot myself and know what a joke the security BS is. Two stories:
#1: When I fly myself, I always have either my Glock or Sig in my flight bag, with a live magazine. Thus regularly stroll around the ramps of various airports with a loaded weapon. Basically anyone can get on the ramp with a weapon, thus allowing them to potentially hijack any aircraft on the ramp (including large jets). Also I regularly drive my truck on the ramp to load my stuff onto my plane or deliver passengers. Usually the commerical apron isn't very far from the General Aviation apron at most airports. All I 'd have to do it load an SUV up with allah akbar terrorists, get through the insignificant security gate, haul ass across the ramp, get to the gates, run up into the jetways, and seize an aircraft. Pretty easy.
#2: When traveling under military orders one time, I managed to set off the metal detectors at the airport. Instead of subjecting me to a search, the brilliant TSA folks said "Oh it's okay your military". Well, it wouldn't of been too difficult for me to sit at home and print out my own copy of orders. Which means anyone can do it.
Now back to the driver's licence. IDs are rediculously easy to forge. My senior year for high school I had a hell of a fake ID (and had alot of fun with it, until the cops decided to "borrow" it :rolleyes: ). No matter how advanced we make IDs there will always be someone who makes a forgery just as good. Thus all we are doing here is paving the way for a national ID card.
 
I recently wrote both my Senators and my Represetive regarding my concern over this legislation. I recieved a response from one today:

---

Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 418, the REAL ID Act. I appreciate hearing from you on this important matter.

I am concerned about several of the provisions of the REAL ID Act. While I support measures to deter illegal entry into the United States, I also believe we must preserve due process under the law and the historic separation of powers. This legislation ignores a number of the bipartisan suggestions of the 9/11 Commission and would reverse some of the positive steps we made in passing the Intelligence Reform bill.

The Intelligence Reform bill implemented a number of the recommendations of the bipartisan 9/11 Commission. The legislation calls for the Border Patrol workforce to be increased by 2000 agents per year from 2006 through 2010. This would nearly double the size of the Border Patrol over a five year period. It also increases the number of full-time Immigration and Customs Enforcement investigators by 800 per year from 2006 to 2010, and the number of detention beds for immigration detention and removal by 8,000 per year from 2006 to 2010. The bill also strengthens and codifies visa requirements and toughens penalties against individuals who unlawfully bring in and harbor aliens.

In contrast, some provisions of H.R. 418 are unnecessary, expensive, and dangerous. Although the REAL ID Act seeks to improve identification security, it would undermine the improvements in identification document security and reliability enacted in the Intelligence Reform bill. The Intelligence Reform bill not only sets strict national standards for state identification documents, it also promises funds to assist states with document upgrades. The REAL ID Act ignores these measures, and calls for national standards without providing financial resources for these costly improvements, an unfunded mandate that has caused the National Governors Association and the National Council of State Legislatures to oppose the REAL ID Act.

Additionally, the REAL ID Act includes provisions to expedite the deportation process without preserving a defendant's right to a lawyer and to present his or her case in court. We can enforce our immigration laws and protect our national security without violating due process.

Lastly, I am concerned with a clause in H.R. 418 that permits the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive all laws in order to expedite the construction of barriers along any U.S. borders. Not only would this provision grant the Secretary of Homeland Security a free hand in overriding laws and regulations, it would prevent the Judicial Branch from reviewing the actions taken by the Secretary. Such a provision would violate the system of checks and balances central to our Constitution, upset the balance of power between the branches of government, and lend itself to abuses of power.

Following passage in the House, H.R. 418 was sent to the Senate, where it has been referred to the Judiciary Committee. As a member of this committee, I can assure you that I will consider the implications of this legislation carefully.

Thank you again for writing and expressing your views on this issue.

Sincerely,

Richard J. Durbin
United States Senator
 
I have to mention that I am a little suspicious about national "standards" for DL's.

That said, the reality of the situation is DL's are the defacto means of demonstrating residency. Just plain, hard reality.

If you (me, too) dislike the idea of standards, what do you propose to do as a solution to the fact of abuse, and the fact that islamofascist terrormongers used slack DL laws to move freely and unobserved about our society.

If you don't like the idea of standards, what do you propose to do with states (like my home state of NC) that systematically diddle legislation to keep from cracking down on DL's for criminal aliens. Remember that once you have a DL, any DL, you are now free to move anywhere in the US. So NC grants the license and the criminal alien is now free to move to, say Indiana, and abuse the medical care industry there.

If you don't like the solution to a real problem, what is your suggested solution?
 
Coltdriver:

You wrote, at the end of your post, the following. "I don't know where you stand on the invasion the country is under from illegal aliens but our representatives are begining to understand that the citizens of the country are not happy with the current situation."

My answer is as follows. Illegal aliens should be deported, forthwith. Having said that, note the following. The U.S. government, and it's several agencies has been screwing the pooch for years and years. If the FBI, the INS and some others had been doing the job they were paid to do, the events of 11 september 2001 might not have taken place.

As to the rest of it, and perhaps beside the point, though I think it is related, Social Security has been twisted beyond all recognition, into a scheme for the regimentation of the individual, including the registration thereof via the abuse of the Social Security Number. Now the same boobus bureaucratus and or miscellaneous elected things, as a courtesy to one of their own, Sensenbrenner by name, want to do the same damned thing with drivers licenses, birth certificates and so on.

By the way, take a look at your SS Card. Mine says the following, in large type face. FOR SOCIAL SECURITY PURPOSES NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION. Next time you get a chance, ask some government employee or bureaucratic type, in or out of government, the following. Re that simple 7 word admonition, exactly what is there about it that they can't understand.

So to recapitulate, deport the illegal aliens RDN, that's right damned now. Then we need to somehow get the agencies of government to do what they are paid to do, which of course would preclude fighting the turf wars they so dearly love. I also submit that this business of non-germane riders must be stopped. Change Senate and or congressional rules if necessary, however if some proposal lacks the legs necessary for it to stand on it's own, then it fails. We need to put an end to the sort of foolishness that we see with this so-called emergency military spending bill.

By the way, the worth and or propriety of the Iraq action is another question entirely, grist for another mill, on another day or evening. As time goes on, I have less and less faith in, and regard for George W. Bush, and I voted for him.
 
Waitone:

Horror of horrors, but might I broach the following re illegal aliens. How about deporting them?

Re other aspects, maybe I'm a throwback, maybe I was born out of proper time but I thought that a drivers license was supposed to show that the issuing state had no particular objection to the fact of my operating some specified type(s) of motor vehicle, nothing else.

By the way, my late father, who lived in Toledo, Ohio as a young man, before and during WW1 once told me that he remembered a time when Ohio didn't issue drivers licenses. At some point, someone realized that the issuance of same could be made a "profit center" for the state, or should you prefer, a money maker therefore, and off we went. Now, it seems, some would convert the damned things into some sort of NATIONAL IDENTITY CARD. Possibly so, but not with my blessing or cooperation.

A The following might prove an even more outlandish idea, but how about getting all these government agencies to do their damned jobs, for a change.
 
jesse2005:

As I recall, Durbin is a great supporter of Gun Control, or put otherwise, he never saw anything described as restrictions on gun ownership that he didn't fall in love with. I'm therefore more than a little suspicious of his output.

Perhaps I'm overly suspicipous. If so, that is something I will have to live with.
 
"Your papers please." said the man in the blacvk uniform with the skull in the center of his cap and lightning bolts on his collar.

With this in place, how much longer will it be before we have to have our passport in hand to travel from one state to the next?

Between the Patriot Act, Patriot Act II, and Carnivore, kind of reminds me of george Orwell's comment in 1984. "Big brother is watching you."

"Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. Starts out when you're always afraid. Step out of line, the man comes and takes you away."
Buffalo Springfield, For What It's Worth.

Paul B.
 
That's weird.................I thought Republicans where supposed to be for less government, states-rights, etc, etc, etc.
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Heh heh....That's something I am going to enjoy rubbing it in with to the all those people I associate with who are republicans for the next year and a half. ;) I've been pointing that out to them for four years now.
 
BreacherUp!:

I believe, and mind, I could be all wrong, but re the "loopholes" that you mentioned, that those things, sometimes also known as INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS, that some in this administration and Washington D.C. would like to close off.

Please think on the following regarding the "federalization" of drivers licenses and other state issued "documents". I submit that the above mentioned is a giant step toward the creation of a system of a National Identity Cards and possibly INTERNAL PASSPORTS. How in blazes is such a scam going to make us safe and secure?

I'm not much for reading the bible, but I do recall from somewhere within it reference to THE MARK OF THE BEAST, that all were required to carry/wear. Isn't it strange how these days how any hairbrained idea that someone wraps in the cloth, no matter how flimsy it might be, of PUBLIC SAFETY or NATIONAL SECURITY, how sacred that idea becomes?
 
All else aside, or setting aside other considerations, I find the following bothersome.

The lengths to which The Congress went to sooth the feathers of Congressman Sensennenber, Chairman of House Juduiciary Committee, who was allowed to attach this BULL****, federalization of drivers licenses, to the first "must pass bill" that came up this year, which turned out to be this
emergency military finding proposal, a legislative proposal that has come to look rather like a CHRISTMASS TREE.

The fact that Senate rules allow the attachment of NON-GERMANE RIDERS to legislative propopsals, re what was supposed to be an emergency military spending bill, this drivers license business is most certainly NON-GERMANE.

Of course, the fact of the gutlessness of a majority of members of the House and likely the same thing demonstrated re members of the Senate, which will likely pass the thing, is something that annoys me. Of course, being a member of the Great Unwashed, I suppose that I might still be allowed to be annoyed at the antics of government, such allowance likely lasting for a short time into the future, maybe.

Of course, given that I'm a bit past 72 years of age, what are the bastards likely to do to me, I suspect precious little. If it turns out that I'm wrong, so be it.
 
The fact that Senate rules allow the attachment of NON-GERMANE RIDERS to legislative propopsals...
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I agree, Alan. Each legislative proposal should be free of riders. But that is a separate issue. For better or worse, it is presently allowed.
As far the the Real ID Act goes, I was also concerned over whether it was leaning toward trampling individual privacy. So I read the darn thing. Top to bottom. It is not a national id, per se. States will continue to have their own licenses. It simply requires that they all follow a certain format and include certain information. To be honest, I had assumed that most of the information was already required by all states; unfortunately it is not. As far as requiring that each state allow their license info to be part of a larger "data" compilation...this is nothing new. It already exists in state data compilations, and most states allow other states' access. Presently, the states get to pick and choose the format and the information that they supply. There is no real consistency. The Real Id Act will force some consistency onto what is presently a bit of a "cluster".
I agree with you that if the federal government and border control would have only been doing their jobs, this would not be necessary. But on the same note, if states like NC and CA had managed their driver's licenses properly, then this would not be necessary. They didn't, and now it is.
 
charley:

Having read HR 418, how do all those lovely powers granted to The Secretary Of Homeland Security, whomever that political appointee might be strike you? Additionally, if HR 418 does not amount to a National ID Card arrangement, respecting the "minimum standards" for drivers licenses and other state issued identifiaction documents, what lies at the end of the road to these "minimum standards", I submit that it comes pretty damned close, altogether to close for comfort, to that National ID Card. By the way, there are then Internal Passports, which no doubt, some in Washington believe would simply be peachey keen.

So California and North Carolina made a mess in the middle of the livingroom carpet, why should the rest of us be twisted round the axle, why not straighten out the offending parties, and talking of offending parties, the incompetence and mal feasance of the INS and other federal agencies is what led to the events of "9/11" about which we hear so much. Have you noticed anyone from "government" having been either figuratively or literally, hung for their failures? I hadn't, but possibly I wasn't looking when I should have been.

Finally, and this will likely hit closer to home, there are state driver license and vehicle registration fees, fees that will likely increase significantly, as a result of the UNFUNDED LIABILITIES placed on the states, by this legislation. When last you renewed your vehicle registration and or your drivers license, how much did it cost you, and how much do you think it will end up costing when the above mentioned UNFUNDED LIABILITIES hit home in Charleston, at the License Bureau and or the Motor Vehicle Bureau, or whatever they call it in West Virginia?

Finally, my late father lived in Toledo, Ohio prior to, and during WW 1. He, at one time, regaled me with tales of how people used to DRIVE out to Put In Bay Island, in Lake Erie, during the winter, once Lake Erie had frozen sufficiently, which it usually did. He also told me about when Ohio did not issue drivers licenses. Seems that at some point, some "government employee" realized that there was money to be made in selling the people a piece of paper telling them it was O.K. to do what they were already doing, driving automobiles. So, what was originally a money maker, has come to be an I.D. Document. I find that problematic, but then perhaps I'm nuts.

My Social Security Card, circa 1948 still says, of the Social Security Number the following. FOR SOCIAL SECURITY PURPOSES NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION. I always took that literally, likely another of my many mistakes. Seems as it any number of people have been and continue to be much more "flexible" regarding how they define things, though I continue to wonder as to exactly what there is, in that 7 word admonition that is so difficult to understand, for some amongst us?

Charley, I might be simply an old pain in the posterior. That's something that comes with age. Never the less, I submit that the people really need to take a close look at what their government and their representatives are up to, and or are doing, before it becomes to damned late.
 
As I have stated before in another thread, If we want to stop illegal immigration we need to do it at the border. We also need better screening processes for LEGAL immigration. I am not sure of the exact number, but most of the 9/11 hijackers came here on LEGAL visas. I know at least several violated these visas, but were never found or deported.

Isn't that ironic? We are willing to pave the way for a national ID card by implementing FEDERAL standards for a STATE ID, and the worst terrorist attack on American soil was perpetrated by Arab men who largely came into this country legally. Furthermore, when some of them violated the terms of their visa, we didn't even bother to look them up.

Congress did take steps to address this post 9/11. They placed the burden on educational instutituions to find people with student visas and make sure they attended. So let me get this straight... the same people who could NEVER get my student loan funds disbursed correctly are going to handle NATIONAL SECURITY?

We need to toughen our borders. We need to monitor those who enter LEGALLY and keep those out who wish to enter ILLEGALLY. I don't see how a national ID card is going stop people from coming in. It may deter people coming in to work here, but it isn't going to stop a terrorist from coming here across our pourous border to maim and kill.

By the way, I am a proud conservative, and this bill angers me. Conservatives are SUPPOSED to be for smaller federal government and state's rights. Yet we are forcing states to adopt a license system and keep a federal database on all of the license holders because the FEDERAL government doesn't want to do one of its Constitutionally enumerated jobs by protecting our borders. :mad:
 
if HR 418 does not amount to a National ID Card arrangement, respecting the "minimum standards" for drivers licenses and other state issued identifiaction documents, what lies at the end of the road to these "minimum standards"
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I have to look at what is involved in this particular piece of legislation. What lies "down the road" is always a concern, but I can not withhold support for a proposition that in and of itself does not trample our rights in the fear that it may be a precurser to some other legislation that might do so in the future. I just thought what I read sounded reasonable.

So California and North Carolina made a mess in the middle of the livingroom carpet, why should the rest of us be twisted round the axle, why not straighten out the offending parties, and talking of offending parties, the incompetence and mal feasance of the INS and other federal agencies is what led to the events of "9/11" about which we hear so much. Have you noticed anyone from "government" having been either figuratively or literally, hung for their failures?
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Unfortunately, I feel the present state-issued licenses are already used as a sort of national identity. One can use a NC card as a valid ID in any other state in the Union. Therefore, the problem is not contained to a particular state anymore than the problem of illegal mass migration pertains exclusively to Arizona, CA, NM and Texas. I think this legislation is intended to straighten out the offending parties, by requiring that all parties follow a certain guideline. I agree with you that the incompetence of the INS and others should have been dealt with, as well.

When last you renewed your vehicle registration and or your drivers license, how much did it cost you, and how much do you think it will end up costing when the above mentioned UNFUNDED LIABILITIES hit home in Charleston, at the License Bureau and or the Motor Vehicle Bureau, or whatever they call it in West Virginia?
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One month ago, I spent just about every penny I had, sold a truck, took out a credit card...all so that we could drive to Arizona and take part in the Minuteman Project. That is how strongly I feel about some of the things I am seeing going on right now. I am willing to pay the extra registration fees.

Seems that at some point, some "government employee" realized that there was money to be made in selling the people a piece of paper telling them it was O.K. to do what they were already doing, driving automobiles. So, what was originally a money maker, has come to be an I.D. Document. I find that problematic, but then perhaps I'm nuts.
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God knows the government has grown way past the intentions of its designers. It is problematic. I just don't know how to turn it around. The country is so big, and the borders are so porous, and our enemies are both numerous and intelligent. It is a dangerous game juggling the threat from foriegn enemies with the possible threat from our own government. I just have to give them (the government) this one. Hope I'm not wrong.

Charley, I might be simply an old pain in the posterior. That's something that comes with age. Never the less, I submit that the people really need to take a close look at what their government and their representatives are up to, and or are doing, before it becomes to damned late.
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Agreed. I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I am increasing annoyed with those who don't even know what I am talking about. The Real Id what? What border? Lets talk about Michael Jackson, instead. That sort of attitude. But then I suppose I am becoming a bit of a pain in the posterior also. Growing grayer and more cynical by the minute. Oh well. Have a good night, thanks for the insightful response.
 
charley:

Re the following quotes from your last:

One month ago, I spent just about every penny I had, sold a truck, took out a credit card...all so that we could drive to Arizona and take part in the Minuteman Project. That is how strongly I feel about some of the things I am seeing going on right now. I am willing to pay the extra registration fees.

Re the foregoing, you having put your money were your mouth is is impressive. I suspect that relatively few would be so willing.

Re your
"I have to look at what is involved in this particular piece of legislation. What lies "down the road" is always a concern, but I can not withhold support for a proposition that in and of itself does not trample our rights in the fear that it may be a precurser to some other legislation that might do so in the future. I just thought what I read sounded reasonable", were the powers vested in The Secretary of Homeland Secruity "reasonable" to you? Your evaluation thereof is, of course, yours to make. I find them questionable, to say the very least. As for drivers licenses already amounting to a form of defacto identity card, you are likely correct in that they do, a situation that I find problematic to say the very least. It strikes me that you exhibit more trust and faith in government than do I. For whatever it might be worth, I voted for Bush. I do hope that it turns out that you are correct. Might I ask if you have read a post by univtxattorney, just before your last? Seems interesting.

Re your last, I hope that you have not concluded that I, "don't even know what you are talking about".
 
Re your last, I hope that you have not concluded that I, "don't even know what you are talking about
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Alan, not hardly. No, that was meant for the hoards of "reality show" and J-Lo addicts out there who actually think the love life of Brad Pitt is headline news. On the contrary, you appear to be very aware of the issues.
I did read the post from unitaxattorney, and yes, it hits the nail on the head on several points. Perhaps if we had taken border security seriously a decade or two ago, we would not be in the fix we are in. Perhaps the "real Id" sort of legislation would not now be proposed. He is right that the legislation is a determent, rather than a true buffer. The answer does ultimately lie in securing the physical border. But I feel the problem is so big that even a determent is a step in the right direction. There are some measures that I support wholeheartedly, and others that I approach with much more trepidation and this one fell into the second catagory, I'll admit. Still, here I am.
 
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