Best 12 Gauge Home Defense Load?
- Thread starter Jumpy
- Start date
Lots of ammo questions
I need to select some HD ammo, too. Right now the
870 is loaded with Federal Tactical 00, with some
reduced-recoil slugs on the side carrier. This is good
ammo for a weekend of training, because it doesn't beat
me up, but for home defense, I don't care what happens
to my shoulder, but I do want to make sure that I
get the absolute maximum incapacitation in the fastest
time possible. This means I can use hotter loads.
What would be a good source for a very hot, magnum buck
load, of high quality ammo?
Also, for the slugs, what's the ideal, heaviest, fastest
slug? Is it Brenekke? Or others?
Finally, I have a case of Federal magnum Hydrashock
slugs. Do they still make these? Are these good?
There doesn't seem to be much information about shotgun
ammo for home defense on the web, and it seems like
most places don't sell much ammo for this purpose.
There's tons of info about terminal ballistics for
handguns and rifles. Oh well, it's just another area
where the shotgun doesn't get any respect.
When I have a chance I'm going to see if I can get
a dozen boxes of different things and a few dozen
soggy phone books and figure out what the deal is.
I need to select some HD ammo, too. Right now the
870 is loaded with Federal Tactical 00, with some
reduced-recoil slugs on the side carrier. This is good
ammo for a weekend of training, because it doesn't beat
me up, but for home defense, I don't care what happens
to my shoulder, but I do want to make sure that I
get the absolute maximum incapacitation in the fastest
time possible. This means I can use hotter loads.
What would be a good source for a very hot, magnum buck
load, of high quality ammo?
Also, for the slugs, what's the ideal, heaviest, fastest
slug? Is it Brenekke? Or others?
Finally, I have a case of Federal magnum Hydrashock
slugs. Do they still make these? Are these good?
There doesn't seem to be much information about shotgun
ammo for home defense on the web, and it seems like
most places don't sell much ammo for this purpose.
There's tons of info about terminal ballistics for
handguns and rifles. Oh well, it's just another area
where the shotgun doesn't get any respect.
When I have a chance I'm going to see if I can get
a dozen boxes of different things and a few dozen
soggy phone books and figure out what the deal is.
If you can't get the job done with Federal Tactical OO you better drop the gun and run like hell 'cause that's one tough dude.
Try those reduced recoil slugs on your wet phone books and be prepared to pick up a lot of shredded paper.
The standard Brenneke 1 oz. slugs went through a foot of newspaper and spread it over 25 yards of the range.
Try those reduced recoil slugs on your wet phone books and be prepared to pick up a lot of shredded paper.
The standard Brenneke 1 oz. slugs went through a foot of newspaper and spread it over 25 yards of the range.
There's plenty of old threads here about this, but let me reprise a few things...
The Govt database said that shotgun effectiveness approached 99%, regardless of gauge,choke or load. Meaning, at typical HD ranges,a 3/4 oz skeet load stops just as effectively as a 10 ga max load of 000.
Pattern your load of choice at the maximum range possible in your house, plus one yard. Betcha it prints into 3-5".
And Zoosh....
All 12 ga slugs are effective. The trick is to find the one that shoots best in a particular shotgun. More old threads on this one also.
Finally, for HD and "Serious" shotgunning, the 2 3/4" stuff usually patterns/groups better than the Magnums. Magnum's an old Indian word for "Moneywaster" (G)...
And,my HD 870 is currently loaded with a couple of trap laods, backed up by WW 00. Next time I rotate the ammo, it'll be the Estate SWAT load, which patterns better in this 870,and fresh trap loads.
The Govt database said that shotgun effectiveness approached 99%, regardless of gauge,choke or load. Meaning, at typical HD ranges,a 3/4 oz skeet load stops just as effectively as a 10 ga max load of 000.
Pattern your load of choice at the maximum range possible in your house, plus one yard. Betcha it prints into 3-5".
And Zoosh....
All 12 ga slugs are effective. The trick is to find the one that shoots best in a particular shotgun. More old threads on this one also.
Finally, for HD and "Serious" shotgunning, the 2 3/4" stuff usually patterns/groups better than the Magnums. Magnum's an old Indian word for "Moneywaster" (G)...
And,my HD 870 is currently loaded with a couple of trap laods, backed up by WW 00. Next time I rotate the ammo, it'll be the Estate SWAT load, which patterns better in this 870,and fresh trap loads.
There are a lot of opinions on SG loading for home defense. The good thing is most of them will work well enough if used on a goblin.
I think it makes more sense to have all one type of load in the mag tube, birdshot/buck/slug whatever you like, and if you want a 2nd type of ammo at hand have it on a butt cuff or side saddle.
Personally I don't like the idea of using birdshot for defense. My SG has a 7 round tube that is kept loaded [chamber empty] with 5 round of Federal's Tac load of OO buck, and the butt cuff holds 5 Rem slugs.
The link below should bring up results of "Home Defense" search on SG forum here on TFL with 46 responses.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/sea...ctname=yes&action=dosearch&getdaily=&pagenum=
I think it makes more sense to have all one type of load in the mag tube, birdshot/buck/slug whatever you like, and if you want a 2nd type of ammo at hand have it on a butt cuff or side saddle.
Personally I don't like the idea of using birdshot for defense. My SG has a 7 round tube that is kept loaded [chamber empty] with 5 round of Federal's Tac load of OO buck, and the butt cuff holds 5 Rem slugs.
The link below should bring up results of "Home Defense" search on SG forum here on TFL with 46 responses.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/sea...ctname=yes&action=dosearch&getdaily=&pagenum=
HD
All I have to say about this is that I take notice of the holes in the back of the Trap houses on the local range. Hmmm 16 yards to the house and a load of #7.5 leaves a nice 5" pattern
OK so trapshooters use tight chokes right? Well on the local Sporting Clays course we have a rabbit target that crosses a field. In the field is a traphouse used to throw going away birds about 12 yards to the left of the stand. The bunnies duck behind the traphouse in their travels. Some shooters are not able to stop their swing Most shooters use cylinder chokes on the bunnies. The patterns on the back of the traphouse from the cylinder chokes are no larger than a grapefruit
Birdshot at inside the home ranges is quite adequate to mess up somebody's day.
Geoff Ross
All I have to say about this is that I take notice of the holes in the back of the Trap houses on the local range. Hmmm 16 yards to the house and a load of #7.5 leaves a nice 5" pattern
OK so trapshooters use tight chokes right? Well on the local Sporting Clays course we have a rabbit target that crosses a field. In the field is a traphouse used to throw going away birds about 12 yards to the left of the stand. The bunnies duck behind the traphouse in their travels. Some shooters are not able to stop their swing
Most shooters use cylinder chokes on the bunnies. The patterns on the back of the traphouse from the cylinder chokes are no larger than a grapefruitBirdshot at inside the home ranges is quite adequate to mess up somebody's day.
Geoff Ross
My reasoning has been that the original shot load is going to do fine (I use #3 buck in 20ga since that's all I can find here) but it is followed by slugs. I assume that if the shot is used up, then I might have to get cover and a 16mm or so 5/8oz rifled slug at 1300fps is just the ticket.
Personally, I am unimpressed by the penetration of birdshot past 8-10 yards (length of my living room). OTOH, it improves in most pistol rounds and so I might as well feel well-armed even with #9 smallshot.
Personally, I am unimpressed by the penetration of birdshot past 8-10 yards (length of my living room). OTOH, it improves in most pistol rounds and so I might as well feel well-armed even with #9 smallshot.
I think penetration is the issue. I've got kids in my house (other bedrooms) & think that birdshot minimizes (not eliminates) the number of sheetrock panels or exterior walls the shot will go thru. Buckshot is great, but I do not think necessary at <10yds. 4s, 5s, 6s, 7 1/2s...all will work. Think about your neighbors...especially if in an apartment.
If the load is aimed somewhere near the neckline, it should do the trick! (Sorry, I couldn't help the wise-acre routine.) I personally use #4 or #6 Remington in my 11-87. Since I live in an apartment complex, using 00 would be liability city, and would land me in jail. Not worth the trouble, if you ask me. Either shot landed at 4m is not going bounce off, that's for sure.
If you're talking about on the road or in the wood/hood, slug should be secondary (I think those Rottweil slugs have about the best accuracy out of a smoothbore), and either Fed or Rem 00 would be the main shell. Since I'm left-handed, the side-saddle thing doesn't work very well for me, so the bandolier or cartridge belt seems a better fit.
If you're talking about on the road or in the wood/hood, slug should be secondary (I think those Rottweil slugs have about the best accuracy out of a smoothbore), and either Fed or Rem 00 would be the main shell. Since I'm left-handed, the side-saddle thing doesn't work very well for me, so the bandolier or cartridge belt seems a better fit.
Dave, I've seen some Federal low brass loads, I think 12 shot or something like that, going for a sing-song in a package the size of a shipping crate (at Wal-mart.) Is this stuff anything like the trap loads you keep in your SG?
I think I'll buy the stuff no matter what, it was really really cheap...I almost cried how cheap it was...
Thanks
I think I'll buy the stuff no matter what, it was really really cheap...I almost cried how cheap it was...
Thanks
If it was 12 shot it would make a nice grasshopper load 
No. 12 is basically dust sized.
I don't believe in Marshall & Sanow's one shot stop %'s but I do find their jello test worthwhile in comparing penetration of various loads. Their second book includes information on shotgun loads.
I have noticed that many people seem to be very concerned about the liability of using buckshot, or even large birdshot, for home defense in an apartment or such.
I can understand that one might live in a building that wouldn't stop a load of birdshot. But if that is the case wouldn't it make sense to set up some cover for yourself & loved ones? A safe room isn't really safe if goblin can shoot holes thru it.
If you live in a house and are worried about your shots, or Goblin's shots, impacting children or whoever in their rooms wouldn't it make more sense to harden their rooms? You can't control what weapon(s) the goblin might choose to use. So what good will it do your family if they are safe from your rounds but not from the goblin's?
People also talk about the max range being measured in feet inside their home. But they never talk about their lines of fire inside their home. If for example goblin is standing right in front of a child's room would you really want to shot at him?
If you shoot IDPA or such you will have no shoot targets and perhaps hostage shots. But do you ever get to change your position so innocents are out of the line of fire?
No. 12 is basically dust sized.
I don't believe in Marshall & Sanow's one shot stop %'s but I do find their jello test worthwhile in comparing penetration of various loads. Their second book includes information on shotgun loads.
I have noticed that many people seem to be very concerned about the liability of using buckshot, or even large birdshot, for home defense in an apartment or such.
I can understand that one might live in a building that wouldn't stop a load of birdshot. But if that is the case wouldn't it make sense to set up some cover for yourself & loved ones? A safe room isn't really safe if goblin can shoot holes thru it.
If you live in a house and are worried about your shots, or Goblin's shots, impacting children or whoever in their rooms wouldn't it make more sense to harden their rooms? You can't control what weapon(s) the goblin might choose to use. So what good will it do your family if they are safe from your rounds but not from the goblin's?
People also talk about the max range being measured in feet inside their home. But they never talk about their lines of fire inside their home. If for example goblin is standing right in front of a child's room would you really want to shot at him?
If you shoot IDPA or such you will have no shoot targets and perhaps hostage shots. But do you ever get to change your position so innocents are out of the line of fire?
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Hardening the room
That's truly the solution, but my limited exploration of that idea leads me to think that the cost would be prohibitive.
What would/are you using to harden the walls with?
Giz
That's truly the solution, but my limited exploration of that idea leads me to think that the cost would be prohibitive.
What would/are you using to harden the walls with?
Giz
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
The odds are highly against a BG randomly shooting through a wall. A "safe room" mostly just has a solid door and a lock which can prevent its being kicked in.
Pragmatically, any "hardening" would be most readily done by the placement of the furniture: A chest of drawers against the vulnerable wall, for instance; and the bed positioned such that one can hide behind it while using the telephone.
Inside the house, I'd use #9 Skeet as the load of choice. ("I thought the itty-bitty shot wouldn't really hurt him, Mr. D.A.")
, Art
Pragmatically, any "hardening" would be most readily done by the placement of the furniture: A chest of drawers against the vulnerable wall, for instance; and the bed positioned such that one can hide behind it while using the telephone.
Inside the house, I'd use #9 Skeet as the load of choice. ("I thought the itty-bitty shot wouldn't really hurt him, Mr. D.A.")
, ArtGizmo99: The price doesn't have to be much. If you use dirt, sand, or water to stop the bullets then the only real cost is the containers to hold the sand or whatever. You can also use concrete or bricks on or in the walls.
You can also just improve a desk or table or such to provide all around protection. So you don't have to harden whole room. That helps keep the costs down.
Besides the costs are only high if you don't think it will help. I am a little young to have seen much of Cooper's & Tappin's newsletter about various techniques used in a certain African country for home defense. But I still remember the idea of having a light switch in the bedroom that turned on a light else where to draw fire [& allow movement and counter attack].
It was bad enough working security in St.Paul, but once or twice had my SO call me because she thought someone was in the house. And while calling LE would probably be ideal solution it took them hours or longer to respond to assaults in progress in my personal experiance as security officer.
That and some other experiances have convinced me that having true cover [stuff that stops bullets] & etc even for typical home defense isn't as extreme as most people think.
Art: Even here in the Midwest I know people that have been almost shot (or more than almost) while in a house. Either from drive by shootings in the city or from morons in the country that didn't care were their bullets stopped.
***
The concept of Safe Room origniated with diplomats IIRC. One of the basic principals of a safe room is that it should be hardened enough to keep goblins out till the calvery arrives. So you base amount of protection by typical response times for aid in your area.
Here in MN if your outside of the big cities you can usually count on help withing minutes. But if your in St. Paul you might never see LE in response to a call [they don't have enough officers for the calls they get].
You can also just improve a desk or table or such to provide all around protection. So you don't have to harden whole room. That helps keep the costs down.
Besides the costs are only high if you don't think it will help. I am a little young to have seen much of Cooper's & Tappin's newsletter about various techniques used in a certain African country for home defense. But I still remember the idea of having a light switch in the bedroom that turned on a light else where to draw fire [& allow movement and counter attack].
It was bad enough working security in St.Paul, but once or twice had my SO call me because she thought someone was in the house. And while calling LE would probably be ideal solution it took them hours or longer to respond to assaults in progress in my personal experiance as security officer.
That and some other experiances have convinced me that having true cover [stuff that stops bullets] & etc even for typical home defense isn't as extreme as most people think.
Art: Even here in the Midwest I know people that have been almost shot (or more than almost) while in a house. Either from drive by shootings in the city or from morons in the country that didn't care were their bullets stopped.
***
The concept of Safe Room origniated with diplomats IIRC. One of the basic principals of a safe room is that it should be hardened enough to keep goblins out till the calvery arrives. So you base amount of protection by typical response times for aid in your area.
Here in MN if your outside of the big cities you can usually count on help withing minutes. But if your in St. Paul you might never see LE in response to a call [they don't have enough officers for the calls they get].
My house is the opposite situation. I live out in the country and the nearest neighbor is several hundred yards away. I keep Federal Tactical 00 in the mag(5 rounds in a 7 shot tube), six rounds of Fed Tactical slugs in the side saddle, for more rounds of 00 in the stock (SpeedFeed) and about 6 more of each in the sling/bandoleer.
The only other person that has a reason to be in my house at night is my woman. If a firefight were to occur, I like the idea of being able to shoot through a wall if necessary.
Not on the first shot, but if incoming fire has already occured.
The only other person that has a reason to be in my house at night is my woman. If a firefight were to occur, I like the idea of being able to shoot through a wall if necessary.
Not on the first shot, but if incoming fire has already occured.