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Berry’s Hollow Base
- Thread starter rdgantt
- Start date
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I use their 185-grain, hollow-base .45 ACP bullets. Velocities are slower than published load data from the Hodgdon web site predict, and I suspect that's due to the additional volume created by the hollow.
The Hodgdon web site says that for a 185-grain jacketed semi-wadcutter (which I have never seen), 5.0 grains of Winchester 231 should produce 762 fps. That's the starting load.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I load using a Lee Autodisk powder measure, and with Win 231 I can't get an even 5.0 grains. 4.9 grains left me with very sooty brass, so I went to the next hole on the Autodisk, which drops 5.3 grains. Hodgdon says the max is 5.9, so I'm still well within the safe range.
But my average velocity with 5.3 grains is 665 fps and the fastest single shot was only 698. So the actual velocities are well below what Hodgdon's data predict.
The Hodgdon web site says that for a 185-grain jacketed semi-wadcutter (which I have never seen), 5.0 grains of Winchester 231 should produce 762 fps. That's the starting load.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I load using a Lee Autodisk powder measure, and with Win 231 I can't get an even 5.0 grains. 4.9 grains left me with very sooty brass, so I went to the next hole on the Autodisk, which drops 5.3 grains. Hodgdon says the max is 5.9, so I'm still well within the safe range.
But my average velocity with 5.3 grains is 665 fps and the fastest single shot was only 698. So the actual velocities are well below what Hodgdon's data predict.
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The hollow base does not change the volume of the internal space if both a standard flat base bullet and hollow base bullet (with the same nose profile and of the same weight) are loaded to the same overall length.
The bearing surface is increased with hollow base bullets since the lead removed from the bottom center is added to the side length of the bullet.
It might not change your load data or velocity at all. Try it and let us know how it goes.
The bearing surface is increased with hollow base bullets since the lead removed from the bottom center is added to the side length of the bullet.
It might not change your load data or velocity at all. Try it and let us know how it goes.
74A95 I think that would be very interesting to follow through with actual measurements of Berry's bullets.
I use 124gr HBFPTP Berry's and 124gr RN flat base and actually have both here on the desk. I just don't have a 124gr. Flat Point Flat base to measure and compare against the Hollow Base just as I do not have a Hollow Base Round Nose to compare.
The Berry's 124gr RN flat base bullet I have is .588"
The Berry's 124gr Hollow Base Flat Point I have is .537"
Anyone have a Hollow base Round Nose or a Flat base Flat Point they can measure?
Or I can refer to Western's data for Berry's bullets and their listed powders and suggest that it does make a difference between the 2 bullets with certain powders while others there is not much.
I use 124gr HBFPTP Berry's and 124gr RN flat base and actually have both here on the desk. I just don't have a 124gr. Flat Point Flat base to measure and compare against the Hollow Base just as I do not have a Hollow Base Round Nose to compare.
The Berry's 124gr RN flat base bullet I have is .588"
The Berry's 124gr Hollow Base Flat Point I have is .537"
Anyone have a Hollow base Round Nose or a Flat base Flat Point they can measure?
Or I can refer to Western's data for Berry's bullets and their listed powders and suggest that it does make a difference between the 2 bullets with certain powders while others there is not much.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
If compiling bullet dimension data, we need more than just the overall bullet length. We also need to know the length of the bullet body, which would be the straight portion before the start of the curved ogive. Once you know that, you know the maximum seating depth, and you can subtract the "body" length from the [bullet] overall length to calculate the nose length. Add the nose length to the case length to obtain a minimum C.O.A.L.
One of the numbers crunchers on the M1911.org forum, who is a reloader and bullseye shooter, started a project to collect and compile bullet dimension statistics. It's in a spreadsheet that he put up on Google Docs. But I just checked, and it's only for .45 ACP, no data for 9mm.
One of the numbers crunchers on the M1911.org forum, who is a reloader and bullseye shooter, started a project to collect and compile bullet dimension statistics. It's in a spreadsheet that he put up on Google Docs. But I just checked, and it's only for .45 ACP, no data for 9mm.
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A hollow base merely displaces the lead - moving it from the center core to the sides, which makes the bullet longer. As stated, if the flat base and hollow base bullets have the same weight and nose profile, they will produce the same internal volume when loaded to the same overall length. The shape of the powder chamber will change, not the volume.
Berry 124 HBRN TP length = .613
Berry 124 RN length = .587
Berry 124 FP length = .520
Berry 124 HBFP TP length = .541
Berry 124 HBRN TP length = .613
Berry 124 RN length = .587
Berry 124 FP length = .520
Berry 124 HBFP TP length = .541
74A95, Excellent! Thank you for that info.
I first ran into this when I started with the Berry's and Hodgdon has data for the hollow base flat point but not the RN flat base and was trying to determine seating depth. Since then I have loaded thousands of both Berry's and Xtreme including Hollow base.
I first ran into this when I started with the Berry's and Hodgdon has data for the hollow base flat point but not the RN flat base and was trying to determine seating depth. Since then I have loaded thousands of both Berry's and Xtreme including Hollow base.
Hardball 9mm 115 gr is usually "hollow Base " in that the lead core does not fill the jacket.The jacket does provide bearing length and seating length.
I'm thinking,for typical 9mm applications,the secure seating diameter is a good thing.
The Berry's,if I'm not mistaken,atre not jacketed,and are not exceptionally hard.
I don't know that you will have a problem,but at some point pressure will cause a hollow base to over expand coming out of the muzzle. Accuracy will suffer.
I'm thinking,for typical 9mm applications,the secure seating diameter is a good thing.
The Berry's,if I'm not mistaken,atre not jacketed,and are not exceptionally hard.
I don't know that you will have a problem,but at some point pressure will cause a hollow base to over expand coming out of the muzzle. Accuracy will suffer.
It is as 74A95 says. Probably the most common example is folks will ask if a .38 caliber 148-grain hollow base wadcutter needs less powder than a 148-grain bevel base or double-ended wadcutter, but the answer is no. The loads are the same because the weight and material bulk density are the same and the COL's are the same (flush with the case mouth, normally, for wadcutters). If you imagine loading a bevel base wadcutter and had a little army of nanobots in with the powder that could hammer the lead from the center to the sides to form a hollow base, you can see that doesn't change the amount of material or how much space it occupies.
No doubt someone will be concerned the longer bearing surface will raise friction, but overcoming friction is a very minor use of the force against a bullet base made by pressure. Even with jacketed bullets, it is variously estimated at 3-6%, and less for lead bullets. So you are looking only at increasing or decreasing that minor percentage by a minor percentage of itself. It would be very easy for the difference to be lost in the noise of normal shot-to-shot variation.
No doubt someone will be concerned the longer bearing surface will raise friction, but overcoming friction is a very minor use of the force against a bullet base made by pressure. Even with jacketed bullets, it is variously estimated at 3-6%, and less for lead bullets. So you are looking only at increasing or decreasing that minor percentage by a minor percentage of itself. It would be very easy for the difference to be lost in the noise of normal shot-to-shot variation.
at some point pressure will cause a hollow base to over expand coming out of the muzzle. Accuracy will suffer.
I think you need to provide some evidence for this statement.
That does happen with hollow base wadcutters. Some folks used to seat them out beyond flush and load them up for self-defense with larger charges of slower powders. (This was usually after they'd first tried seating them backward to make a soft hollow point, and then found out they broke up in water jugs.) When the hollow base cleared the muzzle, the slower powder had held muzzle pressure up enough higher than with a target load that the muzzle blast could actually blow the base of the bullet out to resemble a badminton shuttlecock. Accuracy was terrible. I think someone had some super slow motion video of this at one time, but I don't find a link now.
F.W. Mann made even solid lead bullets blow out that way by cutting his barrels so short that there was near peak pressure at the muzzle. The bottom line is that there is some level of muzzle pressure no bullet except maybe a solid, can keep its shape against. I think it was Laramore who said even a jacket bullet could be upset by high enough muzzle pressure.
The hollow base Berry's don't have as pronounced a hollow base as a swaged HBWC, but there will be some level at which muzzle blast starts to skirt them. I just have no idea what that is. I would be more concerned about encountering the possibility with a short barrel magnum revolver load than anything else.
F.W. Mann made even solid lead bullets blow out that way by cutting his barrels so short that there was near peak pressure at the muzzle. The bottom line is that there is some level of muzzle pressure no bullet except maybe a solid, can keep its shape against. I think it was Laramore who said even a jacket bullet could be upset by high enough muzzle pressure.
The hollow base Berry's don't have as pronounced a hollow base as a swaged HBWC, but there will be some level at which muzzle blast starts to skirt them. I just have no idea what that is. I would be more concerned about encountering the possibility with a short barrel magnum revolver load than anything else.
Berry's rates their HB 9mm bullets, from 1250 to 1500 fps depending on whether or not they have thick plating.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-9mm-356-115gr-hbrn-tp
https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-9mm-356-115gr-hbrn-tp
Velocity is barrel length and pressure-dependent, of course. Richard Lee's Modern Reloading second edition describes experiments in which he limited pressure based on the yield of the bullet material as derived from the definition of the Brinnel number. This was with cast bullets, but he was able to show that staying below that distortion pressure limit really does protect accuracy by preventing deformation of the bullet base. So, ideally, Berry's would give us a peak pressure limit and let us work out the velocity we can get from it with our powders and our barrel lengths for ourselves. That, or give us the yield of the material so we can calculate it by Richard Lee's method.
"...over expand coming out of the muzzle..." Nope. All the pressure is gone as soon as the bullet exits the muzzle. Any HB expansion is done when it hits the bore. HB's tend to be more accurate than other designs because they fit the barrel better.
"...how they will affect my load..." You load according to the bullet weight. Not it's base shape/design.
"...how they will affect my load..." You load according to the bullet weight. Not it's base shape/design.
When Speer was making their swaged hollow base wadcutters, they also posted a warning to not drive the bullets too fast because the skirt would separate and possibly be left in the barrel as an obstruction. I experienced this first hand a number of years ago.
Their load data was different between the HBWC and their BBWC.
Their load data was different between the HBWC and their BBWC.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
The nature of the bullet also moves the center of mass/balance farther forward than it would be for a solid bullet of the same profile and overall (bullet) length. That may enhance stability just a smidge.T. O'Heir said:"...over expand coming out of the muzzle..." Nope. All the pressure is gone as soon as the bullet exits the muzzle. Any HB expansion is done when it hits the bore. HB's tend to be more accurate than other designs because they fit the barrel better.
That's a good theory, but it doesn't explain my real world experience loading Berry's hollow-base 185-grain .45 ACP bullets. The velocities I got using Winchester 231 were far lower than the on-line load data on the Hodgdon web site predicted. 5.3 grains produced an average of 665 fps. The Hodgdon web site tells me that a 185-grain bullet loaded over 5.0 grains of W231 should produce 762 fps, so my loads are almost 100 fps slower using 0.3 grains more powder. If the hollow base doesn't contribute to the discrepancy, I don't know what does.T. O'Heir said:"...how they will affect my load..." You load according to the bullet weight. Not it's base shape/design.
I posted the suggestion that the hollow base COULD flare out like a badminton shuttlecock because I too,saw the same high speed photography Unclenick mentioned.
As Unclenick suggested,its more likely that would be observed in a .357.
If the loads are pushed to 9mm +p levels,they are in the range of .357 pressures.
Sorry,I don't dance just because you snap your fingers. I consider the corroboration of both Unclenick and Dufus quite enough. Hollow bases are to provide seal and obturation for low pressure target loads that may not otherwise "bump up"
Knowledge of what happens to an over driven hollow base bullet has only been around since the Minie ball.
I really do not care if you believe me or not.If you want to learn something,take the lead and do your own research. Don't expect me to serve it to your satisfaction on a silver platter. I'm not worried about winning a debate or proving anything. I'm offering an insight for free.
The application for hollow base lead bullets is lower pressure target loads,and at some pressure point,skirt deformation will occur.I made no claim about what pressure that might be. Apparently ,since you seem,via your rebuttal,to be "uninformed" it was knowledge well shared.
Once again,I acknowledge there is 115 gr JACKETED 9 mm hollow base ammo.
The heavy copper jacket serves a different function and performs differently than the lead skirt on a cast or swaged hollow based bullet.
O'heir,wrong again (snicker). The pressure drops rapidly after the bullet exits.Tell me,if the pressure is sufficient to obturate the skirt outward to seal the bore,what happens when the support of the barrel steel ends suddenly,and before the pressure is lost?
For more fun thoughts,if pressure is zero immediately upon the bullet exit,how does a race gun compensator work? Folks who shoot comp guns want zero exposed lead because the bullet base lead spews and cakes up in the comp.
As Unclenick suggested,its more likely that would be observed in a .357.
If the loads are pushed to 9mm +p levels,they are in the range of .357 pressures.
I think you need to provide some evidence for this statement.
Sorry,I don't dance just because you snap your fingers. I consider the corroboration of both Unclenick and Dufus quite enough. Hollow bases are to provide seal and obturation for low pressure target loads that may not otherwise "bump up"
Knowledge of what happens to an over driven hollow base bullet has only been around since the Minie ball.
I really do not care if you believe me or not.If you want to learn something,take the lead and do your own research. Don't expect me to serve it to your satisfaction on a silver platter. I'm not worried about winning a debate or proving anything. I'm offering an insight for free.
The application for hollow base lead bullets is lower pressure target loads,and at some pressure point,skirt deformation will occur.I made no claim about what pressure that might be. Apparently ,since you seem,via your rebuttal,to be "uninformed" it was knowledge well shared.
Once again,I acknowledge there is 115 gr JACKETED 9 mm hollow base ammo.
The heavy copper jacket serves a different function and performs differently than the lead skirt on a cast or swaged hollow based bullet.
O'heir,wrong again (snicker). The pressure drops rapidly after the bullet exits.Tell me,if the pressure is sufficient to obturate the skirt outward to seal the bore,what happens when the support of the barrel steel ends suddenly,and before the pressure is lost?
For more fun thoughts,if pressure is zero immediately upon the bullet exit,how does a race gun compensator work? Folks who shoot comp guns want zero exposed lead because the bullet base lead spews and cakes up in the comp.
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T. O'Hier said:Nope. All the pressure is gone as soon as the bullet exits the muzzle. Any HB expansion is done when it hits the bore.
That's complete nonsense. Have you never looked at a shadowgraph of a bullet chasing muzzle blast? Have you never looked at the SAAMI recoil calculation? Get a copy of F.W. Mann's 1907 book, The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target. He has lots of pictures of bullet bases blown out by muzzle blast until they have the profiles of Christmas trees. There is no Star Trek teleporter eliminating the gas when the bullet leaves the muzzle. It has to go somewhere. Because it starts out at muzzle pressure and with the speed of the bullet it has been chasing and is lighter than the bullet, it initially accelerates to even greater velocity than the bullet and has enough influence to add two or three percent to its velocity (demonstrated by Harold Vaughn with a magnetometer).
So by some of the comments here someone please explain then why the hollow base bullets are rated to 1500fps or 250fps faster than a solid flat base if the hollow base is meant for a low pressure round?
Also I have looked through Hodgdon and Western data and I cannot find any 9mm loading that gets near the 1500fps range. About everything I've found drops off below 1200fps.
Also I have looked through Hodgdon and Western data and I cannot find any 9mm loading that gets near the 1500fps range. About everything I've found drops off below 1200fps.
Also I have looked through Hodgdon and Western data and I cannot find any 9mm loading that gets near the 1500fps range. About everything I've found drops off below 1200fps.
Some competition shooters use plated bullets and drive them very fast when trying to achieve major power factor. One complaint of some plated bullets was that their plating was too thin and would strip off at high velocity. Heavier plating seems to prevent this. I presume Berrys is trying to appeal to this crowd.