Wild Romanian
Moderator
You asked for Beretta documentation on blow ups. Well here it is . See the thread Beretta Barrels Unsupported ala Glock? W.R.
Beretta documentation for Shake
- Thread starter Wild Romanian
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Come on WR, you had better try harder than that. Your attempts at documentation show that you are grasping at straws in this arguement!
If you would read the entire case you would have read this:
The case write-up also states that the ammo used when the accident happend was REMANUFACTURED ammo.
for those of you who want to read the entire wirte-up without WR's interpretations (or mine for that matter) you can find it here: http://www.court.state.nd.us/court/opinions/960159.htm. Maybe you should read it thoroughly too WR.
The real question is, why did you fail to include this VERY IMPORTANT item as proof that the Beretta's are horrible pistols?
As far as cracked slides go, you continue to make references to many instances of such occurences and then give me ONE LOUSY REFERENCE (which frankly is meaningless because of the overpressure ammo that was used) as proof of your assertions? You continue to refer to cracked slides with the Beretta 92 design. Where is the documentation of all these occurences? According to you it happens pretty regularly, so there must be a lot of documentation out there.
Step up to the plate here WR. Either that or try keeping quiet about things you know very little about.
I will say once again, if it isn't on your magic list of handguns (we can all quote them from memory, they are the only pistols that aren't crap. . . SIG 210, Hi Power, 1911, blah blah blah) then it is a piece of doggy doo doo, isn't it WR?
Give me a break man, you make me laugh harder every time!
Shake
If you would read the entire case you would have read this:
The case write-up also states that the ammo used when the accident happend was REMANUFACTURED ammo.
for those of you who want to read the entire wirte-up without WR's interpretations (or mine for that matter) you can find it here: http://www.court.state.nd.us/court/opinions/960159.htm. Maybe you should read it thoroughly too WR.
The real question is, why did you fail to include this VERY IMPORTANT item as proof that the Beretta's are horrible pistols?
As far as cracked slides go, you continue to make references to many instances of such occurences and then give me ONE LOUSY REFERENCE (which frankly is meaningless because of the overpressure ammo that was used) as proof of your assertions? You continue to refer to cracked slides with the Beretta 92 design. Where is the documentation of all these occurences? According to you it happens pretty regularly, so there must be a lot of documentation out there.
Step up to the plate here WR. Either that or try keeping quiet about things you know very little about.
I will say once again, if it isn't on your magic list of handguns (we can all quote them from memory, they are the only pistols that aren't crap. . . SIG 210, Hi Power, 1911, blah blah blah) then it is a piece of doggy doo doo, isn't it WR?
Give me a break man, you make me laugh harder every time!
Shake
WR-
I swore I wouldn't continue this, but since you finally quoted a source, I checked it out immediately!
09/96 American Rifleman-I assume you refer to the article "Pistol 9mm M9" within the article "A Mystery M9 Beretta". The only reference to a problem is on page 44 at the bottom "In 1989 a "fail safe" slide overtravel stop was designed and aded to new pistols (and retrofit to those already in service) in response to widely-publisized slide breakages in a few M9s the previous year."
Is this what you are referring to?! Everyone knows about the six slide breakages that were, after exhaustive tests by the military and Beretta, found to be the result of extremely overpressure ammo. The military changed it's ammo specs and the breakage problem disappeared. The same article you refer to also ends with "Though M1911 fanciers may hate to admit it, Berettas M9 has clearly held up well under the rigors of military service..." Oh, I forgot, this must be some more propaganda from a gun magazine.
Again, it is obvious that you need to do a little more reading. These were not "blown-up" guns. These were breakages of the slide. The rest of us are talking about .40 Kbs, not an insignificant number of slide breakages from horrendously overpressure ammo from a decade ago.
I also checked your cite of the Beretta court case. Again, you have mis-represented. The failure was with overpressure remanufactured ammo!
Get it right! Your only two sources prove you are biased!
You have an excuse for everything! When its pointed out to you that you couldn't have been using a Ransom Rest when you did your alleged tests, you dismiss the mistake as being a memory faded with the passing of time. Does this same fading (or selective fading) also include everything you've read between the lines in the gun mags?
You owe the rest of us an apology for mindlessly continuing to perpetuate these myths, and then getting nasty and resorting to name calling when proven wrong!
Tom C
I swore I wouldn't continue this, but since you finally quoted a source, I checked it out immediately!
09/96 American Rifleman-I assume you refer to the article "Pistol 9mm M9" within the article "A Mystery M9 Beretta". The only reference to a problem is on page 44 at the bottom "In 1989 a "fail safe" slide overtravel stop was designed and aded to new pistols (and retrofit to those already in service) in response to widely-publisized slide breakages in a few M9s the previous year."
Is this what you are referring to?! Everyone knows about the six slide breakages that were, after exhaustive tests by the military and Beretta, found to be the result of extremely overpressure ammo. The military changed it's ammo specs and the breakage problem disappeared. The same article you refer to also ends with "Though M1911 fanciers may hate to admit it, Berettas M9 has clearly held up well under the rigors of military service..." Oh, I forgot, this must be some more propaganda from a gun magazine.
Again, it is obvious that you need to do a little more reading. These were not "blown-up" guns. These were breakages of the slide. The rest of us are talking about .40 Kbs, not an insignificant number of slide breakages from horrendously overpressure ammo from a decade ago.
I also checked your cite of the Beretta court case. Again, you have mis-represented. The failure was with overpressure remanufactured ammo!
Get it right! Your only two sources prove you are biased!
You have an excuse for everything! When its pointed out to you that you couldn't have been using a Ransom Rest when you did your alleged tests, you dismiss the mistake as being a memory faded with the passing of time. Does this same fading (or selective fading) also include everything you've read between the lines in the gun mags?
You owe the rest of us an apology for mindlessly continuing to perpetuate these myths, and then getting nasty and resorting to name calling when proven wrong!
Tom C
Wild Romanian
Moderator
To turtis
Again you fail to see the tremendous flaw in the Beretta's design.
Beretta had to redesgin this inferior system to make it safe with all types of ammo period. The High power has no such problem. It has been firing loads exactly like this for over 50 years and it does nob blow up like the Berettas do.
Lets face it the slide is too thin in the beretta to handle a steady diet of hot loads. I for one will never shoot hot loads in my beretta because of its inferior design . If you do then you do so at your own risk. Here again history is totaly on my side in this matter.
Did you ever stop to think about how many reloads are fired in High powers ever year. You do not hear about court cases invoving browning blow ups now do you. It just seems to be the beretta both in the military and in civilian use. How many guns have to blow up before you get convinced of its inferior design.
Have you not ever heard of the Walther P38 . That is where beretta got its design and guesss what Walthers are also noted for having cracked slides from shooting ammo that is hot. At least they do not tend to throw shrapnel back into the shooters face.
Also berretta's cure for this design defect does not seem to be much of a cure at all . The pin they installed merely deflects shrapnel from a cracked slide not prevent it from happening.
The beefed up slide variation of this pistol may or may not work and over the long run we will just have to wait and see about this. I for one will play it safe and never fire any hot loads in my Beretta and I will also constantly check for cracked slides. To do so any less is foolish. W.R.
Again you fail to see the tremendous flaw in the Beretta's design.
Beretta had to redesgin this inferior system to make it safe with all types of ammo period. The High power has no such problem. It has been firing loads exactly like this for over 50 years and it does nob blow up like the Berettas do.
Lets face it the slide is too thin in the beretta to handle a steady diet of hot loads. I for one will never shoot hot loads in my beretta because of its inferior design . If you do then you do so at your own risk. Here again history is totaly on my side in this matter.
Did you ever stop to think about how many reloads are fired in High powers ever year. You do not hear about court cases invoving browning blow ups now do you. It just seems to be the beretta both in the military and in civilian use. How many guns have to blow up before you get convinced of its inferior design.
Have you not ever heard of the Walther P38 . That is where beretta got its design and guesss what Walthers are also noted for having cracked slides from shooting ammo that is hot. At least they do not tend to throw shrapnel back into the shooters face.
Also berretta's cure for this design defect does not seem to be much of a cure at all . The pin they installed merely deflects shrapnel from a cracked slide not prevent it from happening.
The beefed up slide variation of this pistol may or may not work and over the long run we will just have to wait and see about this. I for one will play it safe and never fire any hot loads in my Beretta and I will also constantly check for cracked slides. To do so any less is foolish. W.R.
Wild Romanian
Moderator
Thats your opinon not the the opinon of the people who manufactured the ammo. And besides there are plenty of safer pisotols out there that will handle over loads a lot better and much safer than the thin slide berertta. W.R.
Wild Romanian
Moderator
If you get seriously hurt what the hell is the difference. Come on you will have to do better than that. W.R.
Steve in PA
New member
Lets see...I've had my Beretta 92FS for 10+ years...fired lots of factory ammo.....and god knows how many thousands upon thousands of handloaded (by me) ammo. I've been around Berettas in the National Guard that are abused more than you could believe. Several other officers (I'm a LEO) carry Berettas, both the 92FS and 96 versions and I have never, ever....ever seen a Beretta blow up. Neither have I seen a cracked slide or locking block. If I had a nickel for every round that I put through my Beretta I'd be a millionaire. Berettas unsafe???? Doubt it.
Nice sidestep WR.
Could you possibly address the items I brought up in my post regarding the overpressure ammo used in the lawsuit you directed me to?
You know what. . . forget it. I've about had it with the BS that spews from your keyboard. You and I both know you won't ever address a specific issue like that because you simply don't have anything to back it up.
Shake
Could you possibly address the items I brought up in my post regarding the overpressure ammo used in the lawsuit you directed me to?
You know what. . . forget it. I've about had it with the BS that spews from your keyboard. You and I both know you won't ever address a specific issue like that because you simply don't have anything to back it up.
Shake
WR,
Yeah, I've heard of the P38. In fact I own one!!! I also carry the P5 (that will get your blood boiling!!!) Why don't you tell the kind folks about what the experts said when I sent them over here from the P38 forum!!! I think you just don't like Karl Walther's lockwork!!! Cite your references, and it had better be something better than that old tired AR article from 1949. You know, you place too much faith in what the gun rags say. Case, and point: The Gun Rags were talking up the Denel "vektor" a few years ago. According to them, it was the best thing since sliced bread!! The most advanced pistol in the world!!! You know what!! The damn things are DEFECTIVE!!! They're dangerous, and there is no way to fix them, because the design is flawed!!!! This is a citation about what a real design flaw in a firearm will do. Go ahead, believe the Gun Rags. I'll stick with what the real experts say. The P38, and 92FS are safe reliable guns.
Wild Romanian
Moderator
to denfoote. Is it not ironic that Walther also atemped to beef up the p38 slide to prevent it from cracking just like the beretta. I have in my collection two Walther p1's. One with the standard slide and one with the beefed up slide. Same problem , same attempted solution.
Also we failed to mention the other big defect of the Walther and Beretta series of pistols. Either you guys know nothing about them or you are keeping silent about the defect.
Ever take a look at the outside trigger bar on these inferior designed pistols. Strike a hard blow or not so hard a blow and both pistols will fire without you pulling the trigger. Anyone at home can duplicate this so do not take my word for it do it yourself. Visualize yourself taking an unexpected fall in the dark and the hand gun, beretta or walther going off unexpectedley. Not a pleasant thought is it. NOW I SUPPOSE YOU WILL DENY THIS COULD EVER HAPPEN WITH THIS DEFECTIVE DESIGN.
Ok guys let's see you try and talk your way out of this one.
I really do not know why you guys get so emoitional about shooting machines. Lets face it they all suffer from a lot of glaring defects. Do you really enjoy pretending none of these defects exist. If people out there who are yet to purchase a handgun can take a look at all the pro's and con's of these designs let them make up there minds which one they want to spend there hard earned money on. But lets not hold back any information from them either. They are free to argee or disagree but you are not free to hide anything from them just because you have happened to fall in love with your favorite handgun. I perosnally do not love machines. I will reserve that for women. W.R.
Also we failed to mention the other big defect of the Walther and Beretta series of pistols. Either you guys know nothing about them or you are keeping silent about the defect.
Ever take a look at the outside trigger bar on these inferior designed pistols. Strike a hard blow or not so hard a blow and both pistols will fire without you pulling the trigger. Anyone at home can duplicate this so do not take my word for it do it yourself. Visualize yourself taking an unexpected fall in the dark and the hand gun, beretta or walther going off unexpectedley. Not a pleasant thought is it. NOW I SUPPOSE YOU WILL DENY THIS COULD EVER HAPPEN WITH THIS DEFECTIVE DESIGN.
Ok guys let's see you try and talk your way out of this one.
I really do not know why you guys get so emoitional about shooting machines. Lets face it they all suffer from a lot of glaring defects. Do you really enjoy pretending none of these defects exist. If people out there who are yet to purchase a handgun can take a look at all the pro's and con's of these designs let them make up there minds which one they want to spend there hard earned money on. But lets not hold back any information from them either. They are free to argee or disagree but you are not free to hide anything from them just because you have happened to fall in love with your favorite handgun. I perosnally do not love machines. I will reserve that for women. W.R.
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