Beretta 92FS vs. Sig Sauer P226 in durability
- Thread starter Irfan
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Mike Spight
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Irfan:
I don't think it really matters...the average shooter is not going to put enough rounds through one in a lifetime to find out.
Even in the military, the Berettas don't really get that many rounds through them in a lifetime. Qualification (no more than 50 rds IIRCC) is only required once a year...some do more. Special Ops units will wring theirs out a lot more often, but both the Beretta and SIG have proven themselves to be strong, reliable alloy framed handguns.
I think even a shooting enthusiast (a couple of hundred or more rds per month minimum) will find the pistols will go for thousands of rounds before something really goes wrong.
Abuse via too hot handloads is probably the root cause of more failures than anything else.
Mike
I don't think it really matters...the average shooter is not going to put enough rounds through one in a lifetime to find out.
Even in the military, the Berettas don't really get that many rounds through them in a lifetime. Qualification (no more than 50 rds IIRCC) is only required once a year...some do more. Special Ops units will wring theirs out a lot more often, but both the Beretta and SIG have proven themselves to be strong, reliable alloy framed handguns.
I think even a shooting enthusiast (a couple of hundred or more rds per month minimum) will find the pistols will go for thousands of rounds before something really goes wrong.
Abuse via too hot handloads is probably the root cause of more failures than anything else.
Mike
In terms of quality and construction, as well as reliability, you are comparing an old Ford Pickup with a Geo Metro. No matter how much you abuse the old pickup as long as you oil it, it will outlive you, and never fail you, a Geo will not last more than a couple years and is probably the poorest excuse for a car in this country since the Pontiac T-1000. In this case the Sig is the truck and the berretta is the Geo. Spend the money and get a quality piece!
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DOCSpanky
"Walk softly and carry a big stick, perferably one of the 12 guage variety!"
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DOCSpanky
"Walk softly and carry a big stick, perferably one of the 12 guage variety!"
Greetings Irfan, You picked two of the best
as far as fit and finish wise are concerned.
Obviously, the military test trials would
favor the Beretta 92; however in my personal
experience's in law enforcement/civilian life
it would be a toss up, letting the individual
pick 'em? I would have to vote for the Sig
P226; but that is a weapon that I am partial too. I own both; so what would your
choice be?
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Ala Dan
as far as fit and finish wise are concerned.
Obviously, the military test trials would
favor the Beretta 92; however in my personal
experience's in law enforcement/civilian life
it would be a toss up, letting the individual
pick 'em? I would have to vote for the Sig
P226; but that is a weapon that I am partial too. I own both; so what would your
choice be?
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Ala Dan
Mike Spight
New member
DOCSpanky:
I don't think you're snippy...maybe just a little mis-informed. If you're talking about SF (the branch...guys with green beanies) certain folks/teams are using the HK SOCOM pistol in .45 ACP...it's not, BTW, a USP which, I believe, was derived from the SOCOM pistol design.
SF also uses (still) Berettas for some applications...I doubt every swinging richard in SF is gonna be carrying a SOCOM pistol strapped to their thigh anytime soon. To my knowledge, the groups haven't turned their Berettas in.
75th Ranger Regt, 160th AVN Regt, 96th Civil Affair Bn, 4th PSYOP Group and AFSOC (all SOF) still carry Berettas. SEALS will be using the SOCOM pistol for certain applications...but may well still carry SIGs, usually by choice.
Bottomline, SF/SOF have NOT dropped the 9mm handgun totally from their respective MTOES.
Mike
I don't think you're snippy...maybe just a little mis-informed. If you're talking about SF (the branch...guys with green beanies) certain folks/teams are using the HK SOCOM pistol in .45 ACP...it's not, BTW, a USP which, I believe, was derived from the SOCOM pistol design.
SF also uses (still) Berettas for some applications...I doubt every swinging richard in SF is gonna be carrying a SOCOM pistol strapped to their thigh anytime soon. To my knowledge, the groups haven't turned their Berettas in.
75th Ranger Regt, 160th AVN Regt, 96th Civil Affair Bn, 4th PSYOP Group and AFSOC (all SOF) still carry Berettas. SEALS will be using the SOCOM pistol for certain applications...but may well still carry SIGs, usually by choice.
Bottomline, SF/SOF have NOT dropped the 9mm handgun totally from their respective MTOES.
Mike
Both the Sig 226 and the Beretta 92 passed the military XM9 trials back in 1984. The beretta was the choice due to cost and projected contract fulfillment. Beretta could basically fill the empty holsters quicker, and cheaper.
My own personal choice is the Sig 226 for reasons of ergonomics and handeling qualities. From the duribility point of view I think you may be looking at a tossup. Both sidearms have a great reputation in the military and LE communities. Most Civilians (which include LE) choose whatever fits them best.
If you are really looking for a durable weapon and not spend half the months mortgage, I may just turn your head to the Ruger semi-autos or maybe the Glocks. These two makers have put durablillty top on the priority list. Rugers are built like trucks, but are heavy. The Glocks have earned a phenominal rep for going through hell and still firing.
Good shooting!!!
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"By His stripes we are healed..."
PeterGunn
My own personal choice is the Sig 226 for reasons of ergonomics and handeling qualities. From the duribility point of view I think you may be looking at a tossup. Both sidearms have a great reputation in the military and LE communities. Most Civilians (which include LE) choose whatever fits them best.
If you are really looking for a durable weapon and not spend half the months mortgage, I may just turn your head to the Ruger semi-autos or maybe the Glocks. These two makers have put durablillty top on the priority list. Rugers are built like trucks, but are heavy. The Glocks have earned a phenominal rep for going through hell and still firing.
Good shooting!!!
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"By His stripes we are healed..."
PeterGunn
IRFAN, YOU REALLY CAN'T GO WRONG WITH EITHER GUN, BUT THE DURABILITY EDGE HAS TO GO TO THE SIG. ALSO, THE ACCURRACY OF THE SIG IS USUALLY SUPERIOR TO THE BERETTA, PROBABLY DUE TO THE MUCH BETTER TRIGGER ON THE SIG. DOCSPANKY AND MIKE SPRIGHT, FYI THE SIG P226 IS STILL IN SERVICE WITH THE SEALS ALTHOUGH SOME UNITS DO USE THE SOCOM AS AN OFFENSIVE ENTRY WEAPON. ALSO, THE SOCOM WAS DERIVED FROM THE USP PROJECT AT H&K, WHICH WAS BEING DEVELOPED SEVEN YEARS BEFORE THE SOCOM TRIALS WERE ANNOUNCED.
Mike Spight
New member
GR8SHOT:
I thought that's what I said...SEALS still use 9mm SIG 226s....at times, the HK SOCOM pistol may be chosen, depending on the mission profile.
In terms of which came first (the USP or the SOCOM pistol) it's immaterial to me. The weapon seems to be too big for use as a traditional pistol and what can it do as an entry weapon that an MP5 or one of its variants cannot? If I want to use a pistol in its traditional defensive role, the HK SOCOM would not be my first choice...if I want to use an offensive entry weapon, the HK SOCOM pistol would not be my first choice.
IHMO, the HK SOCOM is a typical DOD/USSOCOM attempt to design something via committee in an attempt (unsuccessful) to please everyone.
In the three years I spent assigned to the J3, Current Operations Division at USSOCOM, I never talked to a single operator who was very excited about the HK SOCOM pistol.
Mike
I thought that's what I said...SEALS still use 9mm SIG 226s....at times, the HK SOCOM pistol may be chosen, depending on the mission profile.
In terms of which came first (the USP or the SOCOM pistol) it's immaterial to me. The weapon seems to be too big for use as a traditional pistol and what can it do as an entry weapon that an MP5 or one of its variants cannot? If I want to use a pistol in its traditional defensive role, the HK SOCOM would not be my first choice...if I want to use an offensive entry weapon, the HK SOCOM pistol would not be my first choice.
IHMO, the HK SOCOM is a typical DOD/USSOCOM attempt to design something via committee in an attempt (unsuccessful) to please everyone.
In the three years I spent assigned to the J3, Current Operations Division at USSOCOM, I never talked to a single operator who was very excited about the HK SOCOM pistol.
Mike
The SEALS switched for the one-shot-stop potential. In the required military ball ammo, the 9mm is over-penatrative and does not provide the first shot stop potential of the .45 Also the 9mm is a sonic round and the .45 is subsonic thus the silencing principal works much better.
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DOCSpanky
"Walk softly and carry a big stick, perferably one of the 12 guage variety!"
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DOCSpanky
"Walk softly and carry a big stick, perferably one of the 12 guage variety!"
Help me out with this "sonic" word so often used when describing ammunition. From all my readings and research it is simply when a bullet can exeed about 1000fps. But the speed of sounds isn't exactly 1000 fps. I think "subsonic" is simply a term they labeled to any bullet that didn't go 1000+fps. Am I wrong?
Thanx,
Ben
Thanx,
Ben
This H&K SOCCOM that everybody keeps drooling over is not and will never be a standard issue sidearm. That was not its designed intent. It is a mission specific purpose weapon that appears to be doing quite well. The bloody thing is just to big and heavy to serve as a sidearm.
As far as its caliber choice, the .45 was chosen because it is still a good performer even when silenced. Silencers reduce velocity somewhat, thus reducing energy.
Silencing the 9mm NATO ball could be difficult because it is super-sonic. One would have to reduce its velocity to make it as quiet as the .45.
SEALs will continue to use SIG 226s as long as they are able to choose what sidearms they can carry. SIGs have been reliable for the teams. Interesting they don't use Berettas??? This simple endorcement has made alot of us take a second look at the SIGs. The idea being, if it is good enough for the SEALs, its good enough for me...
By the way 9mm ball and .45 ball have virtually the same performance record. For civilian use, better stick with hollowpoint stuff.
GO SIG!!!
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"By His stripes we are healed..."
PeterGunn
As far as its caliber choice, the .45 was chosen because it is still a good performer even when silenced. Silencers reduce velocity somewhat, thus reducing energy.
Silencing the 9mm NATO ball could be difficult because it is super-sonic. One would have to reduce its velocity to make it as quiet as the .45.
SEALs will continue to use SIG 226s as long as they are able to choose what sidearms they can carry. SIGs have been reliable for the teams. Interesting they don't use Berettas??? This simple endorcement has made alot of us take a second look at the SIGs. The idea being, if it is good enough for the SEALs, its good enough for me...
By the way 9mm ball and .45 ball have virtually the same performance record. For civilian use, better stick with hollowpoint stuff.
GO SIG!!!
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"By His stripes we are healed..."
PeterGunn
BrokenArrow
New member
Military Berettas are going on avg 17-22K for locking blocks, 35K for frames, 55-75K for slides and barrels. Not bad when the specs only asked for 5K (about 40 yrs at normal use. Some units have done as much as 1k a week or more).
SIG doesn't have a locking block, the slides more/frames same or slightly less, the barrels less (only cuzz the Bs are chrome-lined, the SIG is not). The SIGs are slightly more accurate; some Bs will do as well.
OTOH, I've seen rare specimens of both go over 100K, or break at less than 10K.
Get what works best for you. Or get two and shoot one til it breaks, shoot the other until its fixed; that's what I did.
If durability is a priority, the Glock/USP are tougher, and reliable enough if not as reliable/accurate as the B/SIG IMO.
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>>>>---->
SIG doesn't have a locking block, the slides more/frames same or slightly less, the barrels less (only cuzz the Bs are chrome-lined, the SIG is not). The SIGs are slightly more accurate; some Bs will do as well.
OTOH, I've seen rare specimens of both go over 100K, or break at less than 10K.
Get what works best for you. Or get two and shoot one til it breaks, shoot the other until its fixed; that's what I did.
If durability is a priority, the Glock/USP are tougher, and reliable enough if not as reliable/accurate as the B/SIG IMO.
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So, here we are again, to talk about 9mm and .45 which is more powerful and durable, althought it is not the main topic but it is related. In the exchange of ideas it is mentioned here also about penetration and the different grains of bullets, weights and velocities.
Some prefer light weight, others prefer heavy bullets. I keep reading always the description and effectiveness of every kind of bullets made from different manufacturers that were placed in the internet and all justifications are all good.
I visited WWW.firearmstactical.com and they gives so much emphasis on penetration as an effective criteria of bullets. But still they give more important to the big diameter bullets as factor for a better bullets.
What I do now, I will buy all kinds and put every kind in my 4 magazines, so that I am equipped with all the good bullets described.
In the range I only used reload as it is cheaper even I used 150 rds per session so I disregard the loads as I just buy over the counter, but for self defense use - I select my favorites "the heaviest and fastest".
Majority of my research, they prefer the .45 of any make. If I have a chance to own another forty five I'll choose the Sig Sauer.
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited September 26, 1999).]
Some prefer light weight, others prefer heavy bullets. I keep reading always the description and effectiveness of every kind of bullets made from different manufacturers that were placed in the internet and all justifications are all good.
I visited WWW.firearmstactical.com and they gives so much emphasis on penetration as an effective criteria of bullets. But still they give more important to the big diameter bullets as factor for a better bullets.
What I do now, I will buy all kinds and put every kind in my 4 magazines, so that I am equipped with all the good bullets described.
In the range I only used reload as it is cheaper even I used 150 rds per session so I disregard the loads as I just buy over the counter, but for self defense use - I select my favorites "the heaviest and fastest".
Majority of my research, they prefer the .45 of any make. If I have a chance to own another forty five I'll choose the Sig Sauer.
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited September 26, 1999).]
Ben,
You are correct. The speed of sound varies depending on the temperature, but is closer to 1100. The only place it matters if a round is subsonic or supersonic is in a suppressed weapon. Guns make 3 types of noises when fired:
Mechanical noise: The sound of the bolt going into battery during firing. Which can be quieted somewhat, and alleviated completely in a single shot weapon,
Muzzle blast: The sound of the gases escaping the barrel. Which can be reduced by using a sound suppressor (silencer), and
Sonic boom: The sound the bullet makes when exceding the sound barrier. This cannot be eliminated except by reducing the bullets velocity, or by using a subsonic round.
Hope this helps...
bkm...
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Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...
You are correct. The speed of sound varies depending on the temperature, but is closer to 1100. The only place it matters if a round is subsonic or supersonic is in a suppressed weapon. Guns make 3 types of noises when fired:
Mechanical noise: The sound of the bolt going into battery during firing. Which can be quieted somewhat, and alleviated completely in a single shot weapon,
Muzzle blast: The sound of the gases escaping the barrel. Which can be reduced by using a sound suppressor (silencer), and
Sonic boom: The sound the bullet makes when exceding the sound barrier. This cannot be eliminated except by reducing the bullets velocity, or by using a subsonic round.
Hope this helps...
bkm...
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Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...
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