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Beretta 21A ,22LR - What ammo is best for it ?
- Thread starter MIKE10538
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Good question. The lack of an extractor on this pistol makes it unreliable after it starts to get too dirty. My best guess would be a jacketed bullet for the longest string of reliability. Also something with enough oomph to cycle the slide and blow the cartridge out, yet not too much powder build up. Anyone have a good experience with any particular brand.
The other classic malfunction on this pistol is when you actually put one too many rounds into the magazine. I've accidentally done that.
The other classic malfunction on this pistol is when you actually put one too many rounds into the magazine. I've accidentally done that.
If Triton makes the Quick-shok for it, you may wanna look into that. I don't really like the inconsistent reviews Triton ammo used to recieve, but I doubt they can really mess up a 22LR... I've heard good stuff about CCI Stinger hp's.
but who knows,
Ben
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"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
but who knows,
Ben
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<A HREF="http://ben.gunsnet.net
Almost" TARGET=_blank>http://ben.gunsnet.net
Almost</A> Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
Reliable feeding of .22 LR ammo has little to do with the brand, in my experience.
In my 21A, if I load more than 5 rounds in the mag, I'm likely to experience jamming or failure to feed before the magazine is fired to empty.
The problem appears to be due to 'stacking' of the rims of the rimfire cartridge - which allows the nose of the rounds to droop and fail to reliably clear the feed ramp.
In my view, this gun should never be considered a carry-gun for self defense.
In my 21A, if I load more than 5 rounds in the mag, I'm likely to experience jamming or failure to feed before the magazine is fired to empty.
The problem appears to be due to 'stacking' of the rims of the rimfire cartridge - which allows the nose of the rounds to droop and fail to reliably clear the feed ramp.
In my view, this gun should never be considered a carry-gun for self defense.
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
Go to http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs27.htm and read the article "Terminal Performance of MPB Quik-Shok, CCI Stinger and Remington Viper .22 Long Rifle Ammunition when fired from a Beretta Model 21A Handgun into Standard Ordnance Gelatin"
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
For anything other then plinking I use the Quik-Shok .22s. Charles Petty did an article on them a few years ago in IIRC Handguns mag. In the article he stated that he would not recommend any .22LR handgun for self defense, however, if someone was going to carry a .22LR for that purpose he would recommend the Quik-Shok.
You can check it out yourself with the standard MIT/NASA MWET (Milkjug Water Explosion Test). Get a few jugs of water filled up to the tippy top and capped. Fire your standard vel, high-vel, hyper-vel and Quik-Shok into a jug (one jug per round). See what damage they do to the jugs. Quik-Shok by far does the most damage.
Shawn - Why no pics of gel showing the other two tested ammo? I would be nice to compare the permenant/temporary cavities of each of the test ammo.
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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited September 04, 2000).]
You can check it out yourself with the standard MIT/NASA MWET (Milkjug Water Explosion Test). Get a few jugs of water filled up to the tippy top and capped. Fire your standard vel, high-vel, hyper-vel and Quik-Shok into a jug (one jug per round). See what damage they do to the jugs. Quik-Shok by far does the most damage.
Shawn - Why no pics of gel showing the other two tested ammo? I would be nice to compare the permenant/temporary cavities of each of the test ammo.
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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited September 04, 2000).]
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
The temporary cavity from a .22 LR bullet, especially from a 2.5" barrel is insignificant, in my opinion. That's the reason why there's no photos of Stinger or Viper in gelatin. None of these bullets expanded and thus there's nothing remarkable about them to warrant a photo.
The location of maximum gelatin disruption produced by the Quik-Shok .22 LR bullet, when fired from a Beretta 21A, is between 2-3 inches. The TC produced by the Quik-Shok bullet is small and not enough to outweigh its very shallow, 6-inch, penetration.
The reason why .22 LR is less reliable in stopping an aggressor is because it's a small bullet. In my opinion, it's nonsense to use a bullet (for personal defense) that's already at a disadvantage because of it's small size and then make it fragment into smaller pieces as it penetrates.
Quik-Shok .22 LR is good for rodent control. The small temporary cavity, when scaled to the size of rodent bodies, can produce additional tissue damage.
I believe the 12-gauge shotgun Quik-Shot slug would be a good choice, but I haven't tried any yet. I'd like to see the manufacturer offer 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. Quik-Shok slugs.
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
The location of maximum gelatin disruption produced by the Quik-Shok .22 LR bullet, when fired from a Beretta 21A, is between 2-3 inches. The TC produced by the Quik-Shok bullet is small and not enough to outweigh its very shallow, 6-inch, penetration.
The reason why .22 LR is less reliable in stopping an aggressor is because it's a small bullet. In my opinion, it's nonsense to use a bullet (for personal defense) that's already at a disadvantage because of it's small size and then make it fragment into smaller pieces as it penetrates.
Quik-Shok .22 LR is good for rodent control. The small temporary cavity, when scaled to the size of rodent bodies, can produce additional tissue damage.
I believe the 12-gauge shotgun Quik-Shot slug would be a good choice, but I haven't tried any yet. I'd like to see the manufacturer offer 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. Quik-Shok slugs.
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
Shawn,
Thanks for the explanation. Now, one further question if you please.
If none of the bullets (except QS) expanded that means that they produced a permanent cavity of approx .22" to a depth of 9" to 12". The QS Fragmented with three wound tracts covering approx 2" (from the looks of the photo) to a depth of 6". Additionally, with the QS expanding it created a Temporary cavity bigger then those that didn't (granted though small in size).
Lets assume that the energy transfer is approximately the same for all the .22s and that you are not going to achieve a “one shot stop” with anyone of them so numerous round will be fired.
OK, so the choices are drilling, say, 6 .22 holes/tracts with 6 chances of hitting a vital organ and coming to rest towards the back of the target or drilling 6 holes which split into 18 tracts (granted smaller) and come to rest in the middle of the target.
The odds of hitting a vital are much better with the QS. I know that no .22 is going to stop a fight by its power alone and that what you are counting on is either a hydraulic stop or a “physical” stop (“Oh HELL, I’ve be shot”). IMO the QS provides a greater chance of producing a quicker hydraulic stop.
You thoughts?
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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
Thanks for the explanation. Now, one further question if you please.
If none of the bullets (except QS) expanded that means that they produced a permanent cavity of approx .22" to a depth of 9" to 12". The QS Fragmented with three wound tracts covering approx 2" (from the looks of the photo) to a depth of 6". Additionally, with the QS expanding it created a Temporary cavity bigger then those that didn't (granted though small in size).
Lets assume that the energy transfer is approximately the same for all the .22s and that you are not going to achieve a “one shot stop” with anyone of them so numerous round will be fired.
OK, so the choices are drilling, say, 6 .22 holes/tracts with 6 chances of hitting a vital organ and coming to rest towards the back of the target or drilling 6 holes which split into 18 tracts (granted smaller) and come to rest in the middle of the target.
The odds of hitting a vital are much better with the QS. I know that no .22 is going to stop a fight by its power alone and that what you are counting on is either a hydraulic stop or a “physical” stop (“Oh HELL, I’ve be shot”). IMO the QS provides a greater chance of producing a quicker hydraulic stop.
You thoughts?
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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
The diameter of the permanent cavity decreases with penetration. This is because soft tissues will stretch around the contours of a penetrating bullet, and as the bullet slows down more tissue stretches around the bullet rather than being crushed.
Bullet shape is also another important factor. A wadcutter bullet, with its sharp shoulder, crushes a much greater percentage of tissue in relation to its diameter, than bullets whose shapes are round nose, flat nose, or expanded JHP.
An unexpanded .22 LR bullet doesn't crush a permanent cavity that's 0.22 inches in diameter. It's more like 0.15 inches average diameter, which means that during the last few inches of the wound track, where the bullet's velocity has slowed considerably and more tissue is stretching around the bullet than being crushed, the diameter of the permanent cavity is even smaller. So if you manage to hit a vital circulatory system structure the hole is not going to be very big. The hole produced by a .22 Quik-Shok fragment will be even smaller. While hitting vitals is the whole idea, the hit(s) you obtain have to produce enough damage to facilitate rapid blood loss. A vital hit by an unexpanded .22 HP is going to produce a more efficient wound than a vital hit by a Quik-Shok fragment.
6-inches of penetration isn't enough to ensure the bullet will not only reach vital blood distribution organs, but pass through them as well. And this is when penetration conditions are most favorable. An arm in the path of the bullet or an unusual penetration angle that requires deeper penetration to reach vitals than the bullet is capable of achieving is a recipe for disaster.
Does Quik-Shok actually increase the odds of hitting something vital? There's the possibility that your well placed shot, in which your bullet is on track to pass through a major vessel, could be defeated because the fragments veer off at an angle and miss the vessel completely. The idea is to make each shot count. You may fire six times but only get one hit, or get only one good hit. It would be a shame if that one good hit was ineffective because the bullet didn't penetrate deeply enough or it was inefficient in destroying tissue.
Additionally, one of the bullets you fire into a bad guy's sternum might be on track to sever or severely damage his spinal cord and instantly eliminate or substantially reduce his ability to remain a danger to you. Quik-Shok doesn't give you this combat capability.
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
Bullet shape is also another important factor. A wadcutter bullet, with its sharp shoulder, crushes a much greater percentage of tissue in relation to its diameter, than bullets whose shapes are round nose, flat nose, or expanded JHP.
An unexpanded .22 LR bullet doesn't crush a permanent cavity that's 0.22 inches in diameter. It's more like 0.15 inches average diameter, which means that during the last few inches of the wound track, where the bullet's velocity has slowed considerably and more tissue is stretching around the bullet than being crushed, the diameter of the permanent cavity is even smaller. So if you manage to hit a vital circulatory system structure the hole is not going to be very big. The hole produced by a .22 Quik-Shok fragment will be even smaller. While hitting vitals is the whole idea, the hit(s) you obtain have to produce enough damage to facilitate rapid blood loss. A vital hit by an unexpanded .22 HP is going to produce a more efficient wound than a vital hit by a Quik-Shok fragment.
6-inches of penetration isn't enough to ensure the bullet will not only reach vital blood distribution organs, but pass through them as well. And this is when penetration conditions are most favorable. An arm in the path of the bullet or an unusual penetration angle that requires deeper penetration to reach vitals than the bullet is capable of achieving is a recipe for disaster.
Does Quik-Shok actually increase the odds of hitting something vital? There's the possibility that your well placed shot, in which your bullet is on track to pass through a major vessel, could be defeated because the fragments veer off at an angle and miss the vessel completely. The idea is to make each shot count. You may fire six times but only get one hit, or get only one good hit. It would be a shame if that one good hit was ineffective because the bullet didn't penetrate deeply enough or it was inefficient in destroying tissue.
Additionally, one of the bullets you fire into a bad guy's sternum might be on track to sever or severely damage his spinal cord and instantly eliminate or substantially reduce his ability to remain a danger to you. Quik-Shok doesn't give you this combat capability.
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
Blue Heeler
Moderator
Just as a matter of interest,I have found that different .22's are affected by bullet weight.Some like 40gr and some like less.American built guns tend to prefer the heavier projectile--try it and see.
Billy Dale
Inactive
It is well established that the shoulder of a semi-wadcutter never touch soft tissues. The full wadcutter is of course limited to revolvers. None of this discussion is relevant to .22's, 25, 32, 380, and most 38 snubs, because the only place to aim with such loads is at the BRAIN. With an APPROPRIATE load (like the 460 Rowland) a 70-90gr Quik-shok (at 2000-2200 fps) can do more damage than a jhp. Such a load has enough mass and velocity for such slug-segments to actually do something. Spine hits and blood vessel hits are mere FLUKES, because the target is so small, and in the case of the vessels, there is no way to establish their location. They are also elastic, and in some cases, somewhat mobile. With a decent hp, the 30 Carbine does ok (inside 50m or so) The greatest, most experienced warrior of all time (Audie Murphy, 240 kills) favored the Carbine,even with BALL ammo! We CAN achieve 30 Carbine type ballistics with a belt pc, specifically with the 460 Rowland. It is just a question of having enough guys demand such loads, and someone like Triton will offer same as a "factory" load.
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