Benefit of a freefloat rail to an 16 inch AR?

F

Flakbait

New member
Do you think there is any real advantage to adding a freefloat rail to a 16 inch AR with a standard barrel contour?

I plan to use my next AR 5.56 build rifle for plinking, home defense, and as a lightweight ranch rifle (i.e. shooting at critters like Hogs and other varmint that happen to stumble into my field of fire). For dedicated deer hunting/stand hunting I would use a .308 bolt gun.

I think most brass ammo like Federal M193 or M855 is only made to 2 MOA accuracy. I'm assuming the Russian Steel case variety is only worse. I dont see myself spending a buck a round for match ammo just to shoot at steel plates (I have a very accurate bolt gun for that purpose).

Magpul makes a plastic handguard that allows you to attach small rail sections for adding grips and lights.

I really like the looks of the VTAC/JP freefloat rail but I am not sure I can justify the additional cost of the rail and gunsmith fees to install it.

Any thoughts?
 
I have a freeloated Colt that came as a 16" standard contour barrel.
XM193 is the only factory ammo I've tried and it seems like the best I can do is 1.5"
With handloads however its far tighter, solidly under an inch. It(free float) does seem to cut me some major slack technique wise, with a tight sling or off a rest to not be flexing that barrel around. My guess is, the more average or below or inconsistent my technique is, the more it helps...within reason.:)
 
Free Float

If you are not planning to shoot with a sling - a tight sling - you probably will never see a difference in your shooting.
Pete
 
I really like the looks of the VTAC/JP freefloat rail but I am not sure I can justify the additional cost of the rail and gunsmith fees to install it.
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My first reaction was "why would you need a gunsmith to add the free float handguard", then it hit me you probably have the A2 sight on your gas port. And yes you would have to remove the gas port to install the free float handguard. You could do it yourself, but I am not that brave either or want to go through un pinning and reinstalling the gas port on mine.

I used a two piece UTG quad rail to replace my standard LE handguard and it was easy. About 15 min., the hardest part was getting the delta ring pushed back to the rifle without having the proper tools (did it by hand) to snap out the old handguard. I have a thin lightweight barrel on mine, so in my opinion it gave the rifle MORE stability on the barrel than less (this is just my opinion).

The one you picked out (MOE) is an excelent choice and is on many many ARs. There is only two points on the barrel that will be attached, at the delta ring and just behind the gas port.

You will be happy with your choice. Just make sure to match the color with your buttstock and mags.

Jim

Here is what it will look like, picture from another post on the forum

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=457051

Better picture

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR864-1.html

This is what I went with.

SAM_0263.jpg
 
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having a free float rail i a no brainer now a days. do you want a tighter shot group with no torquing of the barrel whenever you grab the rail? $175 for a free floated rail isn't even considered an extra expense in my mind. believe me, if you buy the moe handguard then you'll be kicking yourself later down the road when you decide you want a free floated hand guard. i've installed two vtac rail on 16" guns and i highly recommend them. installing the gas block is easy as well and you wouldn't even have to do that if you just cut the front sight post down to fit under the rail system.
https://picasaweb.google.com/113810...hkey=Gv1sRgCPPx2b3-9q-RTw#5630874242104258546
BEFORE
https://picasaweb.google.com/113810...hkey=Gv1sRgCPPx2b3-9q-RTw#5630874324911133298
AFTER
 
darkgael said:
If you are not planning to shoot with a sling - a tight sling - you probably will never see a difference in your shooting.
Pete
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+100

Free floating hand guards are a fashion statement for 99% of 14.5/16" AR owners. Like Pete stated, no problem unless you use a sling with a lot of sling tension. I would go with the Magpul guards, they are a quality set and are fairly priced.

If you have a more precision set up, 18, 20 or 20+ barrel then a free floating tube is of benefit.
 
Well, everyone beat me to the point. I'll address it as a money thing - how much improvement in accuracy do you get for each $100 spent on the freefloat?

It's rhetorical, you don't. No maker will guarantee any improvement. What you have to do to get improved accuracy - FIRST - is have an accurate barrel, and shoot the best ammo load for it. Get that under 1MOA, and then, the free float will keep any outside influence making it worse. It can't, in and of itself, make any gun "better."

If they did, we could buy two stage triggers and free floats, slap them on $599 guns, and get less than MOA performance. That Just Doesn't Happen.
 
Putting a free-float hand guard on a rifle will cost $500-600 in parts and tools, depending on where you get the parts/tools, and how you configure it.

IMHO, if you're not building a rifle from scratch, it really ain't worth the money. You'd be better off spending the money on a full-auto BCG/buffer/action spring upgrade (about $175), a better trigger (about $175), optics ($300+), and/or practice ammo.
 
Generally on a 16'' carbine I would not be worried about group size. If you want to punch paper and measure group sizes and work on reloads then I would get a 20'' upper with a stainless steel bull barrel on it, and free-float that.

For what you listed as your intended purposes... Non-free floated, with factory ammo will more then serve you well.
 
Putting a free-float hand guard on a rifle will cost $500-600 in parts and tools, depending on where you get the parts/tools, and how you configure it.
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That seems an awful high price to me. How did you arrive at that figure? Even if you are looking at a $300 rail plus wrench, vise, and upper receicer block you wouldn't break $500.
 
Even still... your spending money for no point for the intended purpose.

Get a better barrel for that kind of money.. or an upgraded trigger.
 
Hand guard, gas-block, front sight, sling swivel possible rails for the hand guard (depends on what you want to hang on the rails), vice block, barrel wrench, potentially a 2nd barrel wrench if the hand guard comes with a special nut (mine did). And then it all depends on where you buy the parts/tools, how much you pay for shipping, etc.

I'm not talking about building it with the absolute cheapest parts - I'm talking about building it with the parts you want. For instance, I wouldn't do the YHM diamond hand guard. I'd get a Troy TRX (starts at $160) Personally, I don't need rails on mine, but other people might, and those are usually proprietary items made specifically for the hand guard you buy. What if an end-cap is available? That's more money. It can get expensive and the return on investment is questionable.
 
The free float tube has little to do with barrel length. It will offer the same advantages for accuracy with 16" as 24" in that your barrel harmonics won't be affected by a forward attachment of the tube. However, as was pointed out...

For what you listed as your intended purposes... Non-free floated, with factory ammo will more then serve you well.
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You should get your 2 MOA or better out of most non-float AR15s with decent (not great) factory ammo and even some of the fairly crappy ammo.
 
I'm not talking about building it with the absolute cheapest parts -
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Yankee Hill Machine is held in high regard by those that aren't hung up on overpriced "names".

They're built to the same Mil-spec standards.

"Cheap"? I beg to differ..
 
There's only ONE milspec standard for a free float, and that's KAC. About $350.

Debating the overall cost deflects the real answer to the question, how much accuracy increase is there per $100 spent on a free float tube?

Still nada. Zip, zilch, not one bit, and no guarantees, either. FREE FLOATS DO NOT "IMPROVE" ACCURACY. They can only PRESERVE the inherent accuracy of that barrel/ammo combination by removing outside influences.

The ONLY way to get better accuracy is a better barrel, and better ammo. Even the optic doesn't make it better, it only lets you use more of it to it's fullest extent. Irons vs 12X optic, for example, on the same 600m bench gun.

Spending more money on action parts can make it more reliable, it can't make it more accurate. All that stuff does it's work after the bullet leaves the barrel. If you have a decent quality bolt headspaced in a well made barrel extension properly screwed to a high precision barrel, use good ammo, and have a decent sight picture, you could manually cycle the bolt with the gas turned off. Action parts aren't even a big part of it.

That's the fallacy with most AR accessories, they are sold on a complete misunderstanding of what it takes to make it accurate - and just how much is really needed.
 
@tobnpr:

I didn't mean cheap as in crap parts, I meant cheap as in "inexpensive". As to your YHM reference - I have a YHM free-float tube (and other YHM parts) on my scratch-built AR. I'm not discounting the quality of YHM's parts. Here's the list of YHM parts I use:

Yankee-Hill Machine upper assembly (with forward assist and dust door)
Yankee-Hill Machine smooth floating forearm
Yankee-Hill Machine gas block/flip-up front sight
Yankee-Hill rotating sling swivel stud
Yankee-Hill sling swivel

I don't buy based on a name, but the simple fact of the matter is that there are so many styles of free-float tubes available, and each tube has its own set of pros/cons regarding purchase. I wanted a tube that didn't cost an arm and a leg, but that also didn't have side/bottom rails built-on. I also liked the idea of YHM's anti-rotation screws on the barrel nut. I think it cost $117 or something like that. YHM is definitely at/near the bottom end of the price scale.

@tirod:

My point was that since the free-float tube will have a negligible effect on accuracy, he would be better served by improving the reliability of the rifle by upgrading the action parts and/or the trigger for about the same amount of money.
 
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tirod said:
Debating the overall cost deflects the real answer to the question, how much accuracy increase is there per $100 spent on a free float tube?

Still nada. Zip, zilch, not one bit, and no guarantees, either. FREE FLOATS DO NOT "IMPROVE" ACCURACY. They can only PRESERVE the inherent accuracy of that barrel/ammo combination by removing outside influences.

The ONLY way to get better accuracy is a better barrel, and better ammo. Even the optic doesn't make it better, it only lets you use more of it to it's fullest extent. Irons vs 12X optic, for example, on the same 600m bench gun.
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+10

All the upgrades you do well not change the barrel accuracy, it is what it is. In some cases chamber or crown work well but this does not really apply to the AR's.

You see all the posts about how much better the accuracy is after a trigger/hand guard/scope install. The real improvement was the operator, his tool became easier to use.
 
tirod said:
Still nada. Zip, zilch, not one bit, and no guarantees, either. FREE FLOATS DO NOT "IMPROVE" ACCURACY. They can only PRESERVE the inherent accuracy of that barrel/ammo combination by removing outside influences.
Click to expand...

Isn't that pretty much like arguing tha brakes don't stop a car, they merely stop the wheels on the car from rotating? At some distant point of the conversation, the distinction has relevance to how the car stops (i.e. even with the wheels locked up, the car may continue to move); but in terms of 99% of everyday use, the brakes stop the car.

The distinction you make is technically correct when applied only to the rifle; but for 99% of everyday use a freefloat improves the accuracy from a systemic perspective because it minimizes the effects of inconsistency of one part of the system (the shooter).

Debating the overall cost deflects the real answer to the question, how much accuracy increase is there per $100 spent on a free float tube?
Click to expand...

At the time I purchased my first free float tube, I was big into shooting groups because that is pretty much all I could do at the most convenient range to me. I also kept good logs of my shooting. Prior to purchasing a free float tube, my 5rd groups were consistently 1.5-2.5" at 100yds. After installing a KAC 7.0 rail and Magpul M93 stock on a Bushmaster 16" HBAR (only changes made to rifle or ammo setup), my groups immediately improved by about 0.5" and stayed that way.

Now whether that minor difference is worth the investment for typical AR15 use is a different question; but I think you oversold your point by claiming that a freefloat handguard can't improve accuracy. Your statement is only true if you are talking about the rifle separate from the shooter; but the shooter is part of the overall weapon system and the free-float tube affects accuracy by removing some shooter error from the overall equation.
 
If I were building a AR from scratch then I would spend a little more and freefloat, but I don't think I would convert a AR that wasn't already freefloated.
 
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