Before the gun.

VaughnT

New member
What strikes me most odd is the reliance of a firearm on the body to defend yourself. Time and again, I hear people talk about what guns they carry, and I don't fault this as I do it. However, it is critical to our well-being that we realize that a sidearm is not the first line of defense.

In a post further down, there is talk about a gang of fools that went through Central Park terrorizing tourists and how they wouldn't have if said tourists were packing. Unfortunately, this is a bit off the mark.

Consider this: Did the tourists have warning enough to draw a weapon? The experts say you need about 1.5 seconds to present a weapon from concealment and that you would have to recognize the threat while it was still about 40 feet away - it takes about 1.5 secs to cover 40ft.

More than likely, the tourists never saw it coming and were swarmed before they could draw. This leaves us with what is always the first line of defense: empty-hand fighting.

If the French husband, who was restrained, had reacted immediately with a heal stomp to the bg's instep or a spear-hand thrust to the larynx, he might have been able to get clear for weapons presentation or move in on the bg's doing bad things to his wife.

Where was the knee to the groin? Why aren't the attackers marred by fingernail gouges down their faces? Why can their knees still operate? Why do they still have eyeballs in the eye sockets?

There are a lot of things that should be considered before the gun simply because they are more available than the gun. This isn't to say that you shouldn't get that weapon out as fast as you can, but...

Most important of all is knowing that you are going to kill. In a situation such as described, there seems to be missing any knowledge of hand-to-hand combat. You don't have to be a ninja master to get out of trouble, you just have to be ready and willing to inflict serious, PERMANENT, bodily harm to the person attacking you.

I stress permanent harm because too many people don't really want to hurt anyone, for any reason. This is wrong. You can decide what level you want to take things to, but you HAVE to be willing to take it all the way. That mindset is what will keep you alive. It might seem effeminate to rake your opponent's face with your fingernails, but if it wins the fight, who cares? All you want is to win, not look macho doing it. It might seem disgusting to thrust a finger or thumb through someone's eyeball, and it is disgusting, but you didn't seek out this confrontation and all you should be thinking about is getting home to the family. Don't be concerned with the fact that this animal will never see out of that eye again. It might sound cruel, but remember that you are the good person here. You are the one trying to do good in the world and by rights, you are the one that should go home.

In my line of work, I see all too many people that are not serious about fighting and it is scary. That your timidity or ignorance might get you killed is on you (call it suicide-by-apathy), but that it gets me killed is unacceptable. Practice with your gun, run IDPA matches. But carry an Emerson Commander clipped to you pocket because it can be presented faster and in tighter confines. And when TSHTF, let it all out. There are no Marquess of Queensbury rules in the real world. No quarter, asked or given.

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When Reason Fails.....
 
Vaughn, excellent points. I feel that you know the " real thing " as opposed to the popular studio pap.

Even of those who take lessons and practice "Martial Arts", far too many are learning art and not offence.

" the field of martial arts is particularly rife with flamboyant showmanship, with commercial popularization and profiteering on the part of both those who teach the science and those who study it. The result of this must be, as someone said, that 'amateuristic martial arts are a source of serious wounds.' " The Book of Five Rings, Miyamoto Musashi, Cleary translation.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
I agree.

There is a combination of situational awareness, mental preparation, realistic expectations, raw ability, the desire to survive, and the appropriate tools that is necessary to avoid or survive the violent intentions of others. (I'm sure there are moree which could be added.) All too often people only give it lip service, while failing to recognize its vital role.
 
The problem of not having enough time to respond is valid. However if we would encourage law abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms and other weapons they could come to the aid others in need and vice versa. Indeed we would be a much safer society. When one knows that others might also be armed we are all much safer.

There is a good book out called, "Strong on Defense". The author name is Strong and he indicates that to survive one must be willing to suffer some degree of physical harm.

Another book is: "The gift of fear" which we all have but sometimes choose to ignore. Both are excellent.

A concealed firearm of other weapon sure makes me feel more comfortable when I shop and travel.
 
Recently, I was in a situation little short of a mugging. I was not armed with anything commonly viewed as a weapon...but was quite ready to bash the would-be perp's head with a video camera, however expensive it was. Fortunately, it wasn't necessary to do or take damage that evening. I do not understand tourists who have no contingency plans against hostile locals, be it a gun, a knife, a walking stick or a camera tripod cum impact weapon. Pity they got hurt though...have the perps been caught yet?
 
Over the weekend, a friend of my wife was leaving a bar in Albany when a couple of guys came up from behind and started calling racial slurs.
Now, this woman has had a lot of martial arts training in the past. But she never got a punch in. They beat the sh*t out of her. As I see it, she did several things wrong: 1. she was drunk; 2. she was on the street alone late at night; 3. she didn't run back to the bar when they started yelling; 4. she didn't have any kind of weapon available, even a nailfile, and she wasn't in the right mindset to think about her situation and prepare for it.

Dick
 
Vaughn- you make some good points, but don't forget that empty-hand combat may be out of the question for the elderly or disabled. Doesn't mean they shouldn't resist with everything they've got, of course. Also, a good "sucker" punch can take a lot of the fight out of anybody, no matter how much you practice or what kind of shape you're in.

Another point to consider is that some of us don't feel we should have to practice street combat 8 or 9 hours a week just so we can enjoy a Sunday afternoon with our families.

A handgun carried openly or concealed shouldn't necessarily be a first line of defense. However, if the threat involves a disparity of force (78 yr. old woman against 35 year old thug, one 45 yr. old man against five 20 year old thugs), the firearms purpose is that of equalizer. (Or should be).
 
I've always found it interesting that in the various "Levels of Selfdefence". There was no formal training I've been able to find that transitions from the physical to the gun. I.E. Your walking down the sidewalk. Stranger approaches, as you pass him he lunges at you and grabs your Non-shooting arm. Tactical shoots always seem to be the nice safe 7 meter range but what about the grab from behind? Or the in-your face choke hold? In the case of the New York attacks, The transition from being sprayed with a water gun to being mobbed might not have allowed a opportunity for presenting a firearm. "Ladies and Gentlemen, and Thugs of all Ages, I give you the Little Man From Italy; Berreta!!!" :D
Does anyone know of a school or course that teaches what I call "Transitional Self-Defence?"
 
Meiji_man. There used to be a few schools that taught much as you describe..transition smoothly from weapon to weapon. Removing the defensive mode mindset to one which can go on the offensive when needed. No games but permanently disable the assailant with the first move where possible. If the bad guy gets in the first move and you survive; then your first move ends the conversation.

Chris's wife did some graduate work along this line without the schooling. She graduated with honors.

Other than mental conditioning, this type of self arming cannot be practiced for hours per week, as one would soon run out of opponants.

These levels of "Martial Arts" are rarely discussed in public. Rare is the bad guy who is prepared for such and it is best kept that way.

I am disabled and can not run away. First choice is stay aleart and out of harm's way. Second choice is stop the confrontation with firearm. Third is my very adequate cane. Forth, maby a hand is still deadly. Fifth, I will puke on him as I die.

Sam
 
works for me, If I die my last act will be to try and bleed on his Nike's :p


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"Big or Little, it's all the same to a .45
Which comment embraced the full philosophy of the Gunfighter"
R.E. Howard
 
When attacked, acquire the highest degree weapon you can that is appropriate (even if just hands), apply it with great fury, and when possible acquire a greater and more appropriate tool and continue the fury until the attack stops. Sure, you might not have the 1.5 seconds to draw and fire; do what you can. If you can move up, do so. Such is the importance of training in a spectrum of tools from empty hand to artillery.

Note too that if you are aware, you will often have at least that 1.5 seconds to prepare. People may claim that the Central Park terrorists struck too quickly...really? didn't _someone_ notice bent-on-mayhem punks following an intercept course? probably not...but that's likely not a problem of suddenness of assault but of non-awareness.

"Your pistol is for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should have left in the first place."
 
As I stated in my original post, I am not advocating that people devote a life to the study of this or that. I am simply pointing out that most people don't realize what they can do with what they already have. It seems to me that movies have conditioned people to believe that they have to be kung fu grandmasters and do really elaborate moves that impress the enemy as much as they damage him.

Where is the pure animal reaction to danger? Martial arts might use the "tiger-claw" rake down an opponent's face, but they didn't originate it! It has been said that the pen is mightier than the sword, and it's true. While a katana or wakazashi is absolutely wonderful, and makes you look really cool, a pen to the throat will stop an a thug.

It all boils down to realism and awareness. You have to be realistic in that you cannot expect to go through life unscathed. The anti-gun proponents often, and correctly, claim that the 2nd Amendment is outdated because we don't need to defend ourselves from river pirates, wild animals or bands of indians. These things really do present no measureable threat...unless you change the names. Instead of pirates, think burglar. Instead of savage indians, think muggers and rapists. Instead of wild animals, think, well, that really hasn't changed (feral dogs/trained pit bulls). There is no reason to think the world is any less dangerous than it was 200 or 2000 years ago. The names of the threats might have changed, but the threat is still there.

And because that threat still exists, we must be aware. If you kneel down to sip from a Masai Mara water hole, you'd better be thinking about a lurking crocodile or that pesky lion in the grass. Similarly, if you are walking through a city park on a glorious summer day, you had better be thinking about the darker side of humanity (again this is a case of media brainwashing in that only mindless fools think NYC, and CP in particular, were made safe and wonderful).

Threats don't go away because of the computer revolution. They don't go away because of rapid transit or telecommunications. They might change forms, but they never go away.

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When Reason Fails.....
 
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