On a Remington 700P 223 Cal. 26" heavy brl. 1 / 12 twist . Would it be better to bring the bedding to the end of the stock for regity, being a 26'' barrel. Then to have the barrel free float a long way. I role my own, so I can dial in a load, my thinking is to lessen the vibration. Like to hear your thoughts.
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Bedding Question
- Thread starter cw308
- Start date
LittleBilly
Inactive
Glass Bedding Your Rifle
Fundamentally glass bedding is to make the action solid within the stock; no movement whatsoever. The barrel floats unobstructed from hitting the stock in anyway that may deflect the bullet in an unintended direction; ever so small.
If you could see what the barrel looks like when a bullet is fired it would be a series of ripples moving down the barrel from the action to the end of the barrel.
If one glass beds the barrel too, the free floating and ripple effect of the barrel is interfered with so the accuracy is compromised, leaving one to guess what will happen when the barrel gets warmed up and expands with no place to expand to.
I hope this helps with your question.
Only glass bed the action portion of your stock!
Fundamentally glass bedding is to make the action solid within the stock; no movement whatsoever. The barrel floats unobstructed from hitting the stock in anyway that may deflect the bullet in an unintended direction; ever so small.
If you could see what the barrel looks like when a bullet is fired it would be a series of ripples moving down the barrel from the action to the end of the barrel.
If one glass beds the barrel too, the free floating and ripple effect of the barrel is interfered with so the accuracy is compromised, leaving one to guess what will happen when the barrel gets warmed up and expands with no place to expand to.
I hope this helps with your question.
Only glass bed the action portion of your stock!
Done right either method will work. With standard to heavy barrels usually only the recoil lug, action area and possibly just the first 1-2" of barrel are bedded with the rest free floated. Some just but a bit of bedding material in the recoil lug mortise and call it good.
Thinner barrels sometimes work better with a full length bedding, but I've seen sporter barrels done that way that worked fine.
Thinner barrels sometimes work better with a full length bedding, but I've seen sporter barrels done that way that worked fine.
I have a Remington 700 LTR 308 Cal 20" brl. which I used Devcon bedding, bed the action to 1.5" after the lug, worked great. My thinking was , being a 223 with not much recoil, with a 26" heavy brl and bed to the end of the stock, would have very little movement, leaving about 15" to vibrate. Only will use for target shooting max. 300 yords. Rifle has a 1-12 twist so heavier bullets are out for any longer ranges, can only expect so much from let's say max. 55 gr. bullets. Just looking for that 5 shot bug hole group.
No match winning record setting competitor has anything touching his barrels except the receiver and the round in its chamber. Maybe a front sight if he's using metallic sights.
Any part of the rifle's fore end that touches the barrel will change its pressure on the barrel depending on how the rifle's held. If you want variable pressure at a few points on your barrel, go ahead and put some wherever you want. They ain't gonna be repeatable. And the barrel will vibrate differently depending on that amount of pressure and where it's at.
Even an inch or two in front of the receiver's not a good idea 'cause as the barrel heats up and expands, the pressure on it from that bedding increases causing vertical shot stringing.
'Course you with your rifle loaded with your ammo will have to shoot no worse than 1/2 MOA before you'll see the benefits of a totally free floating barrel.
Any part of the rifle's fore end that touches the barrel will change its pressure on the barrel depending on how the rifle's held. If you want variable pressure at a few points on your barrel, go ahead and put some wherever you want. They ain't gonna be repeatable. And the barrel will vibrate differently depending on that amount of pressure and where it's at.
Even an inch or two in front of the receiver's not a good idea 'cause as the barrel heats up and expands, the pressure on it from that bedding increases causing vertical shot stringing.
'Course you with your rifle loaded with your ammo will have to shoot no worse than 1/2 MOA before you'll see the benefits of a totally free floating barrel.
reynolds357
New member
Each barrel is different. I readily admit that the accepted method is to bed the action and free float the barrel, but I have also had good results full length bedding thin barreled rifles with composite stocks. Full length bedding a wood stock is almost guaranteed to make your rifle change zero at least a couple times per year.
If anyone look at the action used today like in the F-Class open and IBS actions are lot different that standard type action so the support of the barrel differ.
A Bat action for the 308 you can use from 7.5 long action up to 10" and the 10" action you get more support from receiver face back for the longer heavier barrel. There some pretty nice group IBS heavy rifles that are using Barrel blocks.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html
scroll down to side picture and you see the right loading port look forward to barrel and face of action. You have bedding under action and there is sleeve section before threats that support that barrel.
You take rem varmint barrel @ 26" long weight 4 1/2Lb and you take standard Palma barrel @ 30" long that weight 5 1/2lbs.
A 5 1/2 lb barrel you don't need to bed under chamber but I do like my rifles bedded under chamber and lot of that depends on what type rest I'm using and were it's set.
A Bat action for the 308 you can use from 7.5 long action up to 10" and the 10" action you get more support from receiver face back for the longer heavier barrel. There some pretty nice group IBS heavy rifles that are using Barrel blocks.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html
scroll down to side picture and you see the right loading port look forward to barrel and face of action. You have bedding under action and there is sleeve section before threats that support that barrel.
You take rem varmint barrel @ 26" long weight 4 1/2Lb and you take standard Palma barrel @ 30" long that weight 5 1/2lbs.
A 5 1/2 lb barrel you don't need to bed under chamber but I do like my rifles bedded under chamber and lot of that depends on what type rest I'm using and were it's set.
If you're only interested in grouping and don't want to go through as much trouble with POI when switching loads, a pressure point near the end of the forend can help. The upward pressure should be about 5-8 lbs for heavy barrels and not less than 3 lbs for sporters.
For good groups, having too little pressure is worse than too much. Seasonal changes in wood stocks can make a 3 lb pressure point way too little, depending on seasonal wood warpage.
I like to create a pressure point about 1 1/4" long, using epoxy bedding compound. After setting for a couple of days, I rout out the bottom about 1/8" wide and take the tops down to leave two pads about 3/16" wide, centered at about 4 and 8 o'clock.
Pressure pads reduce vibration amplitude, but may increase the frequency. Location, composition, and upward pressure are variables that may affect group size and stringing. Note: Most factory pressure pads in wood stocks are terrible because stocks may warp more when the rifle is new and they never seem to fit the barrel well.
The nice thing about epoxy pressure pads is that they provide perfect pressure, provided the method of providing pressure prior to setting up results in straight-upward pressure.
For good groups, having too little pressure is worse than too much. Seasonal changes in wood stocks can make a 3 lb pressure point way too little, depending on seasonal wood warpage.
I like to create a pressure point about 1 1/4" long, using epoxy bedding compound. After setting for a couple of days, I rout out the bottom about 1/8" wide and take the tops down to leave two pads about 3/16" wide, centered at about 4 and 8 o'clock.
Pressure pads reduce vibration amplitude, but may increase the frequency. Location, composition, and upward pressure are variables that may affect group size and stringing. Note: Most factory pressure pads in wood stocks are terrible because stocks may warp more when the rifle is new and they never seem to fit the barrel well.
The nice thing about epoxy pressure pads is that they provide perfect pressure, provided the method of providing pressure prior to setting up results in straight-upward pressure.
Counterpoint to a pressure point near the end of the forend:
The bad thing about pressure pads of any material is that they provide imperfect pressure, regardless of the method of providing pressure prior to setting up and results in pressure applied to the barrel in different amounts and angles depending on how the stock's held. Using a sling on a rifle with fore end pressure pads subtracts from the pressure force and direction they were originally intended to produce. And the amount and direction the fore end bends varies with the shooting position. It's easily measured with a dial indicator clamped to the barrel with its plunger touching the fore end then shouldering the rifle in different shooting positions and watching the indicator needle move around. Especially on a benched rifle held to ones shoulder resting its fore end on something and one's cheek on the stock compared to just the rifle there on bags and no contact with the human at all.
Remington's early 40X rimfire and centerfire target rifles had screws with detents to zero against the barrel at 4:30 and 7:30 (about 90 degrees apart) on the barrel about an inch back from the fore end tip. After zeroing them to barely touch the barrel with a battery connected to a light bulb, different number of clicks were tried on each screw to find the point they produced best accuracy. Doing this test was to be done from benchrest position. When the rifles were slung up in position, the pressure on the barrel from each screw was different; zeros changed and accuracy went to hell.
To say nothing of how much both wood and synthetic stock fore ends bent from temperature and humidity changes.
Folks soon learned to forget that stupid system and back the screws all the way out so nothing touched the barrel except the receiver. Remington finally wised up and stopped putting that "Freeland" barrel pressure system on their match rifles. I had one in the mid 1960's and it was not worth the ink to write stuff on paper about it.
Always, have I thought that people shooting rifles knew enough not to have the rifle barrel touch anything while aiming at a target and shooting it with the barrel so touching a tree branch, fence post, car roof or even crossed sticks. There's no difference between this and bedding points in the fore end touching the barrel. No benchrester in his right mind does such accuracy robbing things to even his worst shooting rifle.
The bad thing about pressure pads of any material is that they provide imperfect pressure, regardless of the method of providing pressure prior to setting up and results in pressure applied to the barrel in different amounts and angles depending on how the stock's held. Using a sling on a rifle with fore end pressure pads subtracts from the pressure force and direction they were originally intended to produce. And the amount and direction the fore end bends varies with the shooting position. It's easily measured with a dial indicator clamped to the barrel with its plunger touching the fore end then shouldering the rifle in different shooting positions and watching the indicator needle move around. Especially on a benched rifle held to ones shoulder resting its fore end on something and one's cheek on the stock compared to just the rifle there on bags and no contact with the human at all.
Remington's early 40X rimfire and centerfire target rifles had screws with detents to zero against the barrel at 4:30 and 7:30 (about 90 degrees apart) on the barrel about an inch back from the fore end tip. After zeroing them to barely touch the barrel with a battery connected to a light bulb, different number of clicks were tried on each screw to find the point they produced best accuracy. Doing this test was to be done from benchrest position. When the rifles were slung up in position, the pressure on the barrel from each screw was different; zeros changed and accuracy went to hell.
To say nothing of how much both wood and synthetic stock fore ends bent from temperature and humidity changes.
Folks soon learned to forget that stupid system and back the screws all the way out so nothing touched the barrel except the receiver. Remington finally wised up and stopped putting that "Freeland" barrel pressure system on their match rifles. I had one in the mid 1960's and it was not worth the ink to write stuff on paper about it.
Always, have I thought that people shooting rifles knew enough not to have the rifle barrel touch anything while aiming at a target and shooting it with the barrel so touching a tree branch, fence post, car roof or even crossed sticks. There's no difference between this and bedding points in the fore end touching the barrel. No benchrester in his right mind does such accuracy robbing things to even his worst shooting rifle.
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Picher, this is interesting article on a Palma rifle I copied small section here it is and Below will post site with full article
"The barrel is rifled with a four-groove right hand twist, with one turn in 12 inches, and is marked “-Palma Trophy Match-” on the right hand side just forward of the front scope block. The action and barrel is glass bedded to 11/2 inches forward of the action. The barrel is free floating beyond the bedding while the newly designed bolt features a red cocking indicator that appears below the bolt cap when the rifle is cocked."
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/02/history-winchester-palma-rifles.html
"The barrel is rifled with a four-groove right hand twist, with one turn in 12 inches, and is marked “-Palma Trophy Match-” on the right hand side just forward of the front scope block. The action and barrel is glass bedded to 11/2 inches forward of the action. The barrel is free floating beyond the bedding while the newly designed bolt features a red cocking indicator that appears below the bolt cap when the rifle is cocked."
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/02/history-winchester-palma-rifles.html
Those Winchester Model 70 Palma rifles did shoot the ammo supplied for them pretty good. Note the target used for those matches those rifles were used on was the old military "C" target with a 20" V-ring, 36" 5-ring, 54" 4-ring and the remaining 72" square target as the 3-ring. It dates back to the very early 1900's. The best of them would shoot about 15" to 17" at 1000 yards with the ammo used in the Palma matches
I've owned two of them and have talked about their accuracy from 20-some odd competitive shooters who owned one. We all got noticably better accuracy after hogging out that bedding under the barrel's chamber area. Handloads with Lapua's 185-gr. .3092" diameter bullet atop 42 grains of IMR4064 in WCC60 match cases and RWS5341 primers shot a 15" twenty-shot test groups in one of mine with the bedding under the barrel, 9" twenty-shot group after the bedding was removed.
Winchester was advised by the US Palma Team to not put bedding under the barrel's chamber area but they decided otherwise.
They were also cautioned to be sure the rear sight would raise at least 50 MOA above boresight with the chosen front sight. Both the front and rear sight base heights had to be such that the rear sight was no more than 5 MOA above its lowest elevation at boresight. They were not made that way. Hence, the problem with the rear sights at their 800, 900 and 1000 yard zero setting. The error caused by the loose elevations slide arm fit in those Redfield rear sights will cause a 1" error at 900 yards with a 33 inch sight radius and a .001" slop in sight aperture position.
Winchester, as well as Remington, have been missing the mark with their "match" rifles for decades. They never seem to "know their stuff" so many times when it comes to precision and design when their products fall short of the mark. Even technical stuff, such as Winchester's claim that fluting a barrel makes it stiffer that's been in print on their web site for decades. On the other hand, there have been a few things done right at Winchesters design centers.
I've owned two of them and have talked about their accuracy from 20-some odd competitive shooters who owned one. We all got noticably better accuracy after hogging out that bedding under the barrel's chamber area. Handloads with Lapua's 185-gr. .3092" diameter bullet atop 42 grains of IMR4064 in WCC60 match cases and RWS5341 primers shot a 15" twenty-shot test groups in one of mine with the bedding under the barrel, 9" twenty-shot group after the bedding was removed.
Winchester was advised by the US Palma Team to not put bedding under the barrel's chamber area but they decided otherwise.
They were also cautioned to be sure the rear sight would raise at least 50 MOA above boresight with the chosen front sight. Both the front and rear sight base heights had to be such that the rear sight was no more than 5 MOA above its lowest elevation at boresight. They were not made that way. Hence, the problem with the rear sights at their 800, 900 and 1000 yard zero setting. The error caused by the loose elevations slide arm fit in those Redfield rear sights will cause a 1" error at 900 yards with a 33 inch sight radius and a .001" slop in sight aperture position.
Winchester, as well as Remington, have been missing the mark with their "match" rifles for decades. They never seem to "know their stuff" so many times when it comes to precision and design when their products fall short of the mark. Even technical stuff, such as Winchester's claim that fluting a barrel makes it stiffer that's been in print on their web site for decades. On the other hand, there have been a few things done right at Winchesters design centers.
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Bart B, the size of the target has noting to do with anything as that was the rules back then and for some reason 1968 Palma team won. here is clip from article.
"They must have been good rifles as the United States won the 1968 match with a record team score of 4414X4500 while US shooter Clint Fowler chalked up an individual record score, a perfect 225-31Vs. The 1969 Palma, held outside of Toronto at the Connaught Range, saw the United States win again"
And the rules back then was issued rifles.
As to the 1968 issued rifle Win made 75, 1971 they made 125 and 1976 them made 140. In a span of 8yrs making 3 different runs they made some changes as requested.
"They must have been good rifles as the United States won the 1968 match with a record team score of 4414X4500 while US shooter Clint Fowler chalked up an individual record score, a perfect 225-31Vs. The 1969 Palma, held outside of Toronto at the Connaught Range, saw the United States win again"
And the rules back then was issued rifles.
As to the 1968 issued rifle Win made 75, 1971 they made 125 and 1976 them made 140. In a span of 8yrs making 3 different runs they made some changes as requested.
Roper, the size of the target (rings) has everything to do with the scores fired for a given accuracy level of the equipment.
Old USA long range high power target rings used until the early 1970's:
V=20", 5=36" aiming bullseye, 4=54" 3=72" square target paper (original had a 2-point 20" x 72" panel on both sides; removed in the 1920's)
Great Britian long range fullbore target rings
V=14.4" (12" in Canada), 5=24", 4=48" aiming bullseye, 3=72", 2=96", 1=118" wide by 70" high target paper
USA long range high power target rings after early 1970's and adopted by the Int'l Palma Committee in 1991(?) as the standard for its matches.
X=20", 10=20", 9=30" 8=44" aiming bullseye, 7=60", 6= 72" square target paper
It's easy to see how a given shot distribution's dimensions will produce differnt scores depending on the target used. No wonder the USA set a record back then; the target's high scoring ring was 50% bigger than the British fullbore one used in virtually all other countries in Palma matches; 36" vs. 24" and the next highest ring was 54" vs. 48".
Old USA long range high power target rings used until the early 1970's:
V=20", 5=36" aiming bullseye, 4=54" 3=72" square target paper (original had a 2-point 20" x 72" panel on both sides; removed in the 1920's)
Great Britian long range fullbore target rings
V=14.4" (12" in Canada), 5=24", 4=48" aiming bullseye, 3=72", 2=96", 1=118" wide by 70" high target paper
USA long range high power target rings after early 1970's and adopted by the Int'l Palma Committee in 1991(?) as the standard for its matches.
X=20", 10=20", 9=30" 8=44" aiming bullseye, 7=60", 6= 72" square target paper
It's easy to see how a given shot distribution's dimensions will produce differnt scores depending on the target used. No wonder the USA set a record back then; the target's high scoring ring was 50% bigger than the British fullbore one used in virtually all other countries in Palma matches; 36" vs. 24" and the next highest ring was 54" vs. 48".
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Folks, don't get me wrong. I don't advocate pressure points and only have one rifle that uses one, a single-screw, bull-barrelled Ruger 10-22, which needs one to lever the rear of the action firmly against the bedding.
However, the gentleman wanted to know how to improve his groups, so I offered a pressure point method for him to try. Some rifles shoot very well with them, but I don't generally recommend them for the reasons you stated.
JP
However, the gentleman wanted to know how to improve his groups, so I offered a pressure point method for him to try. Some rifles shoot very well with them, but I don't generally recommend them for the reasons you stated.
JP
Bart B, Please read my first part of the post
"the size of the target has noting to do with anything as that was the rules back then and for some reason 1968 Palma team won"
Size of target was the rules of that match it could be any size what's the big deal. Wins a Win that's in the record books not size of target.
I was a team roper (heeler) and I roped for money and their is rules and you won one fast time. Couple years ago at the NFR held in Las Vegas they change the rules for the team ropers which can effect the payout(money) on the average and who wins the title and gold bucket. What was change "NO THIRD LOPE" which meant if header or heeler miss that was it. I haven't seen or heard of an interview were the ropers are complaining.
You shot next to last in the Palma match what did that target have to do how you shoot and you sure had comments on how others shot. My roping partner miss and I miss that part of the game you feel bad enough when it happen. I'm sure you felt the same way and maybe that's why your not post on the Palma site.
"the size of the target has noting to do with anything as that was the rules back then and for some reason 1968 Palma team won"
Size of target was the rules of that match it could be any size what's the big deal. Wins a Win that's in the record books not size of target.
I was a team roper (heeler) and I roped for money and their is rules and you won one fast time. Couple years ago at the NFR held in Las Vegas they change the rules for the team ropers which can effect the payout(money) on the average and who wins the title and gold bucket. What was change "NO THIRD LOPE" which meant if header or heeler miss that was it. I haven't seen or heard of an interview were the ropers are complaining.
You shot next to last in the Palma match what did that target have to do how you shoot and you sure had comments on how others shot. My roping partner miss and I miss that part of the game you feel bad enough when it happen. I'm sure you felt the same way and maybe that's why your not post on the Palma site.
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There is a wealth of information on this site including step-by step bedding tutorials
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/
You may not agree with everything he says but he certainly gives you food for thought.
David
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/
You may not agree with everything he says but he certainly gives you food for thought.
David
Roper, you need to do some research and learn how many of the USA NRA High Power National Long Range championship aggregate and match winners the previous 6 years before the 1988 and 1992 World Palma matches that made the USA Palma Team for those two years. Then find out how many placed where in each of their team matches. For example, several placed in the bottom third of the team scores during the matches. And other recent Nat'l champions didn't even make those teams.
Meanwhile, keep venting your disgust with my performance on the 1988 team. And ignore the fact that I shot the high agg score with the 1992 Palma ammo at the 155's introductory match in 1991 And two years later place third by 4 points in the annual big Palma matches at the Whittington Center due to a miss in a gust of wind that cost half of the folks on the firing line range 10 points and very wide shot for most of the others. Stuff happens.
Check the scores in all the long range matches fired in the USA and see how the top 30 competitors move up and down the scoreboard several places from day to month to year. They ain't (almost) perfect all the time.
I don't think very many, if any, former US Palma Team members frequent and/or post on the Palma forum in Long Range Rifle Teams's web site. But you probably did just to check up on something. I don't because I've no desire to. It's just not my (nor their) thing to do.
But Roper, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and great shooting anyway.
Meanwhile, keep venting your disgust with my performance on the 1988 team. And ignore the fact that I shot the high agg score with the 1992 Palma ammo at the 155's introductory match in 1991 And two years later place third by 4 points in the annual big Palma matches at the Whittington Center due to a miss in a gust of wind that cost half of the folks on the firing line range 10 points and very wide shot for most of the others. Stuff happens.
Check the scores in all the long range matches fired in the USA and see how the top 30 competitors move up and down the scoreboard several places from day to month to year. They ain't (almost) perfect all the time.
I don't think very many, if any, former US Palma Team members frequent and/or post on the Palma forum in Long Range Rifle Teams's web site. But you probably did just to check up on something. I don't because I've no desire to. It's just not my (nor their) thing to do.
But Roper, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and great shooting anyway.
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