Bed Rifle Actions?

[Beepy]

I have a couple rifles that I have replaced the original stocks with after market plastic stocks.
One is a Weatherby Vanguard in .30-06. It shot excellent groups with the original synthetic stock. After replacing it with a Boyd's walnut stock it shot the same load into similar groups to the same point of impact at 100 yards. I didn't even have to adjust the scope. Very surprising.

Many years ago, I took my Remington 788 in .308 out of its original wood stock and put it in a plastic Ramline stock. Its groups aren't quite as good as they were originally, but not all that bad, in the 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" at 100 yards for 5 rounds, but it used to be in the 7/8" to 5/8" size before the switch. The original stock is long gone.

Two questions:
1) In your opinion, will bedding the actions of these guns provide a noticeable benefit?
2) I still have the original tupperware for the Vanguard - just because - if I bed it in the Boyd's stock, would you recommend bedding it in the plastic stock, too?

 

[Slamfire]

One is a Weatherby Vanguard in .30-06. It shot excellent groups with the original synthetic stock. After replacing it with a Boyd's walnut stock it shot the same load into similar groups to the same point of impact at 100 yards. I didn't even have to adjust the scope. Very surprising


1) In your opinion, will bedding the actions of these guns provide a noticeable benefit?

You did not mention group size nor show any pictures of the groups. Assuming that your groups are 1.25" or less, I would not monkey around with the Boyd's stock. Actually, I probably would monkey around with the Boyd's stock, but having gone down that path before, with a hunting rifle, and I had mixed results. My rifle was a 30-06 M700 and taking the thing out of the factory Tupperware stock and bedding it in a laminated wood stock, my groups were not sufficiently small to have made a difference.

My experience with a M700 in 6.5 Swede was different. I conducted load development for M700 classic in 6.5 Swede and found the thing was not necessarily a tack driver. At 100 yards it did shoot under 2”, which I consider perfectly acceptable for deer hunting. If the rifle shoots 2 MOA, then it will hit within four inches at 200 yards, six inches at 300 yards. That is plenty good, considering that I don’t hold much better with a lightweight rifle off the bench.

The 6.5 Swede action was in a wooden factory stock. For this rifle, and someone else confirmed their rifle was similar, Remington created a raised area in the barrel channel which created a pressure point. I like free floated barrels. When a barrel heats up it will expand. If there is a pressure point, or a bearing point on the barrel, as the barrel expands, the pressure against the barrel changes. This will cause a change in a point of impact. Not only did the stock have this raised factory pressure point, the barrel rubbed against the side of the barrel channel.

So with stock channel tools, I scraped the barrel channel, removing the pressure point, and created a clearance so the barrel no longer touched the left side of the barrel channel. I suspect the left side of the barrel touching the stock created a lot of side to side movements. But not all. If the recoil lug is free to slide around in the stock, the action will shift during recoil.

I “pillar” bedded creating columns of Bisonite, and then I routed a humongous amount of wood forward of the magazine recess, and filled that with Bisonite. The final bedding looks awful, with voids, and it is not completely filled out around the recoil lug recess. But I was tired and grumpy and wanted to shoot my rifle, so I put it back together and took it to the range.

Anyway, just bedding this rifle changed its group size considerably. These lightweight rifles are hard to shoot, they are twitchy, they kick hard, and they are very sensitive to stock weld and shooting position. Still, this rifle shot close to 1 MOA which is excellent for a deer rifle.








I have couple of "before glassbedding" targets. Everything is at 100 yards. If you notice the wide horizontal dispersion with 140 SMK’s. Sierra match bullets are in a word, superb. In a match barrel they will shoot bug hole groups. This side to side movement indicated to me that something was wrong with the bedding. The action, or the barrel was moving left and right in the stock.




In my opinion it shot much better. This target was fired fast, about five shots under a minute, maybe two. I racked the bolt and shot if the crosshairs looked good. The barrel was hot enough to be uncomfortable to touch.

2) I still have the original tupperware for the Vanguard - just because - if I bed it in the Boyd's stock, would you recommend bedding it in the plastic stock, too

I have not tried bedding a Tupperware stock and don't know if there would be complications. If the rifle shoots well in the Boyd's, I would not mess with the factory Tupperware stock. The primary reason is that I would hold on to it and see if I could sell it, or keep it in case I wanted to sell the Vanguard. Shooters don't want to buy a messed up stock, and having to grind out someone else's epoxy will make the stock hard to sell. And then, having a factory original rifle, one not showing any bubba bedding (some of my bedding jobs are horrible looking) would make the whole rifle easier to sell.

Bed only if you are having accuracy problems or just want a project. And do it in the Boyd's aftermarket stock only.

 

[tobnpr]

Far as the Wby -.06, you say it shot "excellent groups" in the factory stock and "similar groups" after dropping it into a Boyd's.

Why mess with "excellent"?

In the case of the .308, it shot less consistently after the stock change.

Tells you, in no uncertain terms, that it could benefit from a bedding job- as the only parameter/variable you changed- is the stock.

A barreled action has NO idea, whether it's in a "tupperware" stock, a walnut one, a laminated one with epoxy bedding, or a state-of-the-art, aluminum CNC chassis.

Bottom line is, whatever the stock material- it's purpose (aside from ergonomics for the shooter) is to hold the action firmly- without any stress/bending- with as near zero movement as possible under recoil.

It's critical that the action not move- or if it does a minute amount- that it return to the same exact position after each shot. Accuracy = consistency. This can be done with most stocks, even the "Tupperware"- with epoxy bedding to stiffen it. Plastics/composites are a bit of a different animal though, because epoxies do not get a good chemical bond to them, prep is different.

A rifle can shoot poorly, just because of a loose stock to action fit, failing to have the barrel free-floated (usually, but not always), or having the receiver stressed. The last happens when the receiver is warped when the front and rear action screws are torqued because of poor fit. Yes- the receiver will bend- and it can be measured. You'd be surprised...

IMO, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But the .308 would likely benefit from bedding assuming you checked the obvious things like barrel channel fit/free-float because that alone can cause a big consistency issue.

I've probably posted this link 100 times, but it never gets old:

http://www.6mmbr.com/pillarbedding.html

 

[Beepy]

Thank you for the feedback, Guys.

Attached are the two targets from the Vanguard that I have scanned into my computer. Both were shot on the same day but the 10 round one was shot after moving the action from the factory stock into the Boyd's stock. The black square patch is 3/4". the grid is 1/4". They were shot at 100 yards.

On target #1, note the 1st 3-round group low on the sheet on the "date" note line with all three rounds touching. This was the first three rounds fired out of this gun after bore-sighting the scope. The 3-round group near the center of the orange bull was the first group fired after adjusting the scope for zero. These were fired with the barreled action in its original plastic stock. This target is a typical 3-round group fired from this gun.

The ten round group was shot in the Boyd's wood stock and was shot a couple hours after the first target. It is finished walnut and the barreled action just dropped right in without any fussiness. I was very surprised when it shot this group!

As you can see, I have had this rifle for a couple years. I do not shoot it much as I use my Tikka .270 for Metallic Silhouette and hunting, too. However, I intend to gift it (Vanguard) to my son this fall. I live in AZ and he lives in eastern SD, which is why I have been considering bedding this one.

My Rem. 788 is an old friend I bought NIB at a gunshow when I was in college back in 1982 for $112. (It was nearly every cent I had at the time.) It is in almost new condition (except for the Ramline stock) and has a Timney trigger installed by Timney. (They are local here and put this one in while I waited. ) I like the Ramline stock for hunting, but I like the idea of giving it a Boyd's Lightweight Thumbhole laminated. Like I said, it's an old friend.

 

[Lange]

I know a lot of people complain about factory Synthetics and the cheapness, some are really kinda mediocre or lacking(remington for instance). However most cases they do shoot in them to most of full potential or at least good accuracy because they are engineered to. Often times seems like they did the bare bones with the stock to achieve sub MOA even though may be follow and void of any nice features or bedding. Rarely have I heard of many rifles at least with a thinner barrel contour shooting better or at least signficantly better by changing to a aftermarket stock. I mean this purely by changing stock alone. You change because you like the stock not for accuracy. Unless theres a clear accuracy issue at hand.

If its a sub MOA rifle, a factory action and barrel only go so far so you can bed change it, etc but at best get no better groups or maybe a fraction of a inch. I mean this for sporter rifle profile barrels, since that seems to be a varying science. Some manufactures don't believe in floating thinner barrels others do. None seems to prevail over the other in winning accuracy. Your 700$ floating Browning xbolt epoxy bedded wont outshoot your typical 700 SPS non bedded, non floating lesser quality stock often. In my research and experience anyway. I also mean on a general basis since factory rifles can vary considerably.

I have found more evidence in gun articles and user feedback the bull barrel pressure point may not be so good though. This instance hard to say if they do it for accuracy or because they can't float the barrel in the way they manufacture that stock. Still many shoot well sub MOA but may actually benefit more than the pressure pointed sporter by barrel float. Less affected by vibrations and harmonics than a sporter profile barrel.

I am talking about Remington 700s since thats my biggest research and experience so far but applies to every gun thats similar likely.

Pressure pad deal many people complain about because people have the idea free floating is the only way supposed to be etc... Not true but don't deny it can cause problems in certain instances. I have a 700 VTR SS in the plastic stock, actually this stock feels better works better on this rifle than the stock on the SPS Varmint...etc because its more compact sleeker fits the gun better. Sub .5 rifle with the pressure point. yeah im not touching a thing even custom match rifles with premium jobs and barrels costing several thousand more may not even be that accurate.

Interesting all the theory and things that go into it. I am not claiming anything 100% but just my observations if anyone wants to comment and elaborate more on what they've found or tested.

Thanks and good luck with your Vanguard. Nice rifle.

 

[Clark]

Un like the OP, I have never been able to get performance out of an injection moulded stock [the $50 kind epoxy does not stick to].

But give me a bull barrel 223 in a synthetic stock and I will shot sub moa with the crummy synthetic stock or or stockless.

The idea with bedding is to get a consistent low compliance [stiff] fit between the barrelled action and the stock. If it is low enough compliance, the stock will become part of the recoiling mass. Not partially coupled, but part of the mass that moves at the same time.

The bigger the mass, the slower and less the rifle moves. That is why the bedding is so important with a 338 Win Mag featherweight and so unimportant with a 223 bull barrel. The forces between the 338 action and the stock are high. You want more square inches of hard material with perfect mating surfaces normal to the direction of recoil.

I am working on just such surfaces tonight. Steel on Steel. Very little galvanic potential.

 

[Gunplummer]

When the plastic stocks started hitting the market I had the same problem with the epoxy not adhering. I called one of the stock manufacturers (Too long to remember who) and he told me they put a release agent in the plastic so the stock pops out of the mold easier. I was then instructed to put a bunch of cuts and grooves in at different angles so the epoxy would kind of get stuck in there. That turned me off to plastic stocks. If you are going to bed, make it solid. Bedding has it's applications, but if you work with a lot of really light rifles, it can cause more trouble than it cures. I have pulled a lot of old rifles apart that had stocks so tight it look as if they let the tree grow around the rifle. They shot fine, BUT they were tight everywhere. That is why what some people call a "Bubba job" was done. They were getting rid of the loose wood that was moving the barrel around. Maybe "Bubba" knew what he was doing.

 

[Unclenick]

In his 2000 book, Rifle Accuracy Facts, Harold Vaughn got a Remington action .270 Win to shoot 1/4 moa. The final piece of the work was an action mount made of multiple leaves of aluminum that allowed the action to recoil fairly freely and parallel to the stock until the bullet had cleared the muzzle. IIRC, that worked out to be about 1/20 of an inch. This removed the last vertical recoil moment he had measured and was the end of vertical stringing.

He also mentioned the home-made equivalent of the Remington bump. The trick with that bump is that to make it work well it has to be located in the right place for the ammo selection, but I don't see Remington mentioning what that is for the individual rifles. Vaughn's version supports the barrel at two places 120° apart to eliminated shifting. What was said earlier about stock shift is true, but if you have some excess pre-load on this bedding and the stock is uniform and symmetrical, it doesn't shift as much as you'd suppose.

IIRC, Vaughn used a couple of wedges of paper match sticks to locate the bump. You apply about 10-20 lbs of force to deflect the front end of the stock down with the muzzle resting on a rigid support, and slip the matches in, then release the force to let the wood (or plastic) stock compress it against the barrel. Fire a group. Move the match sticks back, shoot another group, etc., until you find the right spot for your load. You then mark it, put some mold release on the barrel, soak the match sticks in epoxy and put them in place and let them set and cure with a 10-20 lb weight holding the stock end down below the supported muzzle. Afterward, you release the weight and have permanent preloading of the barrel in place.

A company that used to call itself Accu-Magic came up with a tunable version that installs in the stock. They now sell this system under the name SmartStock. Note the stock limitations at the bottom of the page, though.

For plastic stocks a hard rubber bedding can be formed from Devcon Flexane 80. This has a little give. It is a two-part polyurethane than sets to a synthetic rubber with a durometer hardness of 80. Because it is flexible it adheres better to flexing surfaces. With a nylon stock, though, you still need to make undercut holes for it. Mix it and use a disposable glue syringe to apply it into those holes.

 

[Gunplummer]

Take a good look at the pictures. That looks like your standard East Coast hunting rifle to me. I had a lot of guys come in with the "Bed the stock" concept , or "Free floating the barrel" idea put in their heads by writers. Most of these guys were woods hunters. Free float the barrel? Can you imagine how much dirt and water gets under that barrel in a day of hunting? I can. I have seen it. If your gun shoots good, why would you want to bed it? That is something to do when there is already a problem.

 

[Clark]

Unclenick

Harold Vaughn got a Remington action .270 Win to shoot 1/4 moa. .. allowed the action to recoil fairly freely and parallel to the stock until the bullet had cleared the muzzle. IIRC, that worked out to be about 1/20 of an inch.

I have thought about that. I was thinking teflon, but I guess any non galling metal would work.
130 gr bullet + 50 gr Powder = 0.025 lb moving 22" is 5 lb moving 0.11".

What I am up against with the 6.5-06 I built a few months ago and shot deer at 250 and 629 yards with it, was that it could put 5 shots in 1" at 100 yards consistently. But I was barely qualifying on paper to hunt at 600 yards in a 2moa kill zone. My skill with wind and trajectory are leaving improvement in 1 moa big game rifle accuracy in diminishing returns.

A perfect rifle would not do much to improve my maximum range. So I am back to solid bedding.

 

[tobnpr]

For plastic stocks a hard rubber bedding can be formed from Devcon Flexane 80. This has a little give. It is a two-part polyurethane than sets to a synthetic rubber with a durometer hardness of 80. Because it is flexible it adheres better to flexing surfaces. With a nylon stock, though, you still need to make undercut holes for it. Mix it and use a disposable glue syringe to apply it into those holes.

This is interesting...

You have good experience with this "on paper", so to speak?
Devcon says it cures to a medium-hard rubber. Traditionally, bedding compounds (I use 10110 putty) are near-zero shrinkage and maximum hardness.
I'm sure this stuff compresses under recoil (esp. at the recoil lug)- but perhaps if it's rigid enough to flex, and return the action back to the exact same position each time you'd get the consistency- which is the whole reason to bed an action in the first place.

I've got two customers' Pro-Mag polymer stocks in the shop now that I need to bed as part of the work. Always used the Devcon with degreasing, divots, roughing, more divots, holes...you get it. But, still can have issues with bonding in thin areas.

Got a picture of a rifle bedded with this stuff?

 

[Slamfire]

Attached are the two targets from the Vanguard that I have scanned into my computer. Both were shot on the same day but the 10 round one was shot after moving the action from the factory stock into the Boyd's stock. The black square patch is 3/4". the grid is 1/4". They were shot at 100 yards.

Looked at your groups, and I would leave things alone. The rifle shoots fine. I have gone into the woods with rifles that shot much larger groups. Unfortunately, nothing showed up at the time I was in the deep, dark woods with those rifles. But if there was, I am certain I would have got them.

Unclenick

Harold Vaughn got a Remington action .270 Win to shoot 1/4 moa. .. allowed the action to recoil fairly freely and parallel to the stock until the bullet had cleared the muzzle. IIRC, that worked out to be about 1/20 of an inch.

That is amazing, and great picture of course. I am certain that given enough tuning, a stock that was pressure point bedded to a barrel would give superior accuracy. But it would be a hit or miss thing, like the tuning it required to get a BOSS system to shoot. But then, change the components, and I expect the bedding would have to be altered. As you know, the vibration patterns of the barrel will change.

I am not a fan of pressure point bedding a barrel, and the only barrels that I have seen that might need it are hunting barrels. Of the decades I have shot competition rifles, I have never seen a target rifle pressure point bedded. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is shooting a free floated barrel.