Bears and bear guns

K

Keith Rogan

New member
Perhaps some of you recall the long, fascinating (sometimes acrimonious) discussion we had on bear defense pieces and cartridges we had some time ago.
I really enjoyed and learned a lot in that thread, so much that I've totally revamped the "Bears and Bear Maulings" web site. You'll probably recognize some of the commentary from the threads here on TFL in those pages.
This NOT a commercial site, I don't make any money or get any deals from products mentioned in the site.
I'd appreciate any commentary on on the site itself (does it load up fast enough, is the text legible and clear, etc), as well as further commentary on bears, guns or loads.
You can link to the site from the hypertext near my signature and then simply close the window to return to TFL.
Thanks in advance for any commentary.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Well Kieth,I guess this is one situation where I would have to admit that my 1911 .45ACP may not be the ideal choice.I would have to say .454 Casull,300 GR. bullet. I am aware of the existence of the .475 Linebaugh which can push 435 GR. bullets at about 1350 fps.which I am sure could do the job if I could ever overcome the flinch and actually HIT the bear in question.
 
Kieth-pretty informative website you have there.It caught my interest as i'm planning a fishing trip to the Glacier area later this year with some longtime shooting & fishing companions.It will be the first trip into "big bear" country for all of us and in our "planning"sessions(mostly just a good excuse to get together and ramble about the things that interest us)this topic has come up.The points you make certainly seem valid to me and I will have to admit,based on your recommendations & experience,that most of us on this trip were probably a good deal off base.I will have to re-think this a bit...Hmmm...perhaps you have provided the perfect excuse for a new sidearm...I don't THINK my dear wife would want me eaten by a bear.
 
1911,

I don't think you'll be able to carry a sidearm in the National Park (I promise not to tell the wife though!).

You may have to rely on pepper spray which works very well in most situations - if you can get the awkward little cannister deployed in time!
I think theres a great money-making opportunity for someone to develop a pepper spray can thats actually ergonomic, pointable and quick to employ. The ones available now are set up like a can of bug spray and have a weird little safety tab thats awkward to get off. If you see a bear coming your way and you can get ready, great! If you're surprised (usually the case), you're hosed.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith - You're right about the design, or rather lack of design, for most pepper sprays. But, I saw a very good design on one of the Fox "amazing videos" type programs. Two bank tellers were wary of a bank customer and got their pepper spray at the ready in front of them. The spray was in the form of a pistol. They had a pistol grip and trigger. The barrel was about 2" in diam. and about 8" long. The tellers were able to bring the spray devices up and hit the BG in far less than a second and he was only about 3 ft. away. A device like that in a fast action holster would be far better than the belt-clip pull-the-tab and hope its pointed in the right direction models.
 
Now yer talking ! Get me a can of spray shaped like a 1911 with some tritium sights and I'll tuck her right in a piece of Lou Alessi cowhide!Actually Kieth the trip is outside the Park boundry,so the issue is still open.We do have a side trip (2days)planned inside Glacier Nat'l itself and were aware of the carry restrictions,but I don't want to get that close and not see the scenery in the park itself,so I'll take your advise on the spray.
 
Sorry, Keith, I have no idea what the name of the product is. The episode lasted only about 1 min. and, of course, they didn't go into details. It was more oriented toward the fast thinking tellers than the spray they used. Perhaps a call to a banking security supply house is in order. If I find out anything I'll let you know.
 
MANDATORY BEAR ATTACK AND DEFENSE READING!

"Bear Attacks, The Deadly Truth" by James Gary Shelton. (Available at Amazon for about $13). I purchased this after our revious bear defense thread a while back.

Facinating is the best word to describe this book. True stories that are so gripping I finished the book in a matter of days. It's amazing what these creatures are capable of. The speed at which they can close on a victim leaves very little time to think or react.

Shelton reports on Blackies as well as Griz attacks in British Columbia. Many (like Keith) were unable to get a shot off in time. Unbelievably, many venture into Griz country alone or without any defense mechanism at all. Hello?

And by the way, Grizzlies can and will climb trees. How you ought to respond to an attack depends on the type of bear and its reason for making contact. Shelton not only thoroughly researches each encounter, but provides probable causes for the contact, as well as analyizing the victims response to the attack, either positive or negative.
 
George,

Somebody pointed out that Shelton book to me from the previous thread. I really need to get that book.

Thats interesting about the grizzlies climbing tree's. I've always understood they could only climb in specific circumstances - like a leaning tree or one with branches spaced just right. I'm sure coastal grizzlies/browns can't climb at all, but they could probably just shake you out if they wanted to<G>.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith,
I enjoyed the page. Nice work. I too have a fascination with bear attacks. I'm a wildlife biologist and a frequent visitor to some of the more ursine areas of Alaska. I think the most informative on this subject today is Dr. Steve Herrero. I think he is still at U. of Calgary right now. He is unquestionably the world expert on bear/human interaction and his book, Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance is required reading.
I can also tell you that after running into a 900lb coastal griz in Alaska, I stopped carrying my dinky .44 magnum. After coming face-to-face with that big boy, I knew that I was just going to make him madder. The guy next to me had a .454 Casull and it didn't make me feel one bit better. Now I carry a Winchester Defender with an 8-shot tube anytime I'm in Alaska. When I'm backpacking, I take the stock off and replace it with a pistol grip and stick in the ski tubes on my pack. It's filled with an assortment of buckshot and slugs. That is now my "bear minimum", or the "bear necessities" as I like to say. In National Parks I'm still forced to resort to pepper spray, but be assured it's the large 1lb fire extinguisher type.
 
Sorry I missed the original thread. I checked your site and it loaded fine. The immages were a shade slow, but since the text loaded first folks could get the information and view the excellent pictures as they loaded.

I spend some years in Alaska - both in the pan handle area and interior as well as the Arctic. I agree with you that the chances of a bear aggression are very low. I camped a lot in a number of areas with bear populations and never worried about it particularly. In some areas there was a good population of "thin skinned medium weight" animals that I worried a lot more about.

As I was "into guns" a lot of folks would ask me what kind of hand gun would I recommend for bear. Based on my experience on some occassions watching bears in their daily activities and talking to a half dozen or so folks who had game appropreaited by large grumpy folks in fur coats - I generally recommended the following:

If, from the leather, you can hit a playing card sized target which is moving in a random pattern at about 50 fps in less than 1.5 seconds - then a .22 would probably be sufficient. Though bigger would be better.(Having looked at a number of bear skulls - You're absolutely correct - they ain't that thick over the brain pan.)

Absent that - then carry a short, handy shotgun or heavy rifle. I recommended number 4 buck - since we are not talking hunting here - but rather like any other BG senario - stopping.

The least you have to think about when the SHTF is best. My preferred shotgun was (is) an Ithaca Police 37 without the trigger disconnect. (Hold the trigger back and pump like hell. If you happen to think to release and re-pull the trigger - fine - otherwise, that's OK too.)

A handgun might be functional, as you indicate, if you can get at it while the bear is playing with you. Something that can be acquired and pressed (litterly) into service - preferably in the head/neck area.

As far as I know, there are two individuals who have been known to have permanently stopped a brown bear with a knife - Hugh Glass(sp?) in the early 1800s and a gentlemen from Anchorage within the last month or so. (Interestingly both were in their 50s or 60s - so much for AARP's claim that we seniors need protection.) I don't know of any incidents where a handgun made the difference when it got to the growl and wrestle stage. That isn't to say there aren't any - and your data base is no doubt far better than mine. But I'd think the ability to get at a handgun and operate it, would be equal, or more, critical than the caliber. At that point I'd think the issue is surviving the incident - not immediately stopping it. (Give it your best and then play dead and pray your opponent bleeds out and/loses interest.)

My guess, if it got to the growl and grovel (guess who is in which role) stage, the pepper spray would be as effective as anything else - if you can get at it and then use it.

Good site and good advice to those who go a-wandering. And I'd like to re-affirm your note about the risk being low, low, low - but there.

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Jim Fox
 
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