BE-86 Testing

[pctechdude]

CAUTION: The following post(s) includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


So as the name implies I've been enjoying this powder a lot. Been using it in 9mm and 45acp for JHP loads. Please be advised that there is data shown which is above Alliant's listed max charges. Please reduce your charges 10% if using this data. I am not responsible for someone being foolish. I took careful measures in working these up. Be safe, Be smart!

In 9mm I used a 124gr Speer Gold Dot & 147gr Gold Dot

I'll start with the book max charge of 5.9gr for the Gold Dot
Test Gun Glock 19 Gen4
Federal Cases, Win Small Pistol Primer 1.120" COL.

5.9gr

1195fps
1193fps
1198fps
1199fps
1192fps

I then pushed it, following other data points I've found

6.3gr Federal Cases, Win Small Pistol Primer 1.120" COL
1252fps
1260fps
1257fps
1263fps
1255fps

I measured the fired case of the 6.3gr loading that achieved the 1263fps. The fired case at the web was expanded to only 0.388~0.389" About the same as normal range fodder ammo.

Then in research for the 147gr loading, Alliant states 5.1gr as max for a 147gr jhp at 1.12" however the standard pressure Federal HST 147gr uses 5.4gr BE-86 at 1.124" and has tested around 1040~1050fps which is odd because that's what the velocity claim for the plus p 147gr hst.

147gr Gold Dot
5.4gr Starline Cases Win Small Pistol Primer 1.121" COL

1043fps
1055fps
1039fps
1044fps
1043fps

Cases looked amazing, no bulging etc...Primers nice and round.

45acp testing
230gr Gold Dot Starline Cases Federal Large Pistol Primer 1.205" COL
Test Gun Springfield 1911 Range Officer 5" Barrel

6.9gr (Alliants listed +p load per manual)

935fps
937fps
933fps
939fps
931fps

My conclusion so far is the powder is quite excellent. Has achieved very good velocities, low flash and no signs of being near or over pressure for any of the cartridges.

I wish Alliant listed pressure values for their load data, because from the testing I've done with this, I have a feeling the data they provide is on the low side. Speer loads the 115gr Gold Dot +p+ at 8.0gr of BE-86.

Winchester Ranger T 230gr +p was loaded with 7.0gr of BE-86, and this lot of ammunition I bought in 2009~2010. It chronographed about 50~60fps slower than the claimed 990fps.

The powder itself has been out quite a long time according to reps at Alliant, but only in the bulk/commercial sector for manufacturers.

My next endeavor will be boosting the charge on the 147gr up to 5.7gr and testing. I have the cartridges loaded up, I did extend the length to 1.125" just as an added safety. Will post my results shortly!

 

[Sevens]

Those are impressive results.

While I could see me trying BE-86, I definitely don't see me ever buying component Gold Dot bullets. But great info & reporting here. Velocities look very consistent, too.

 

[Kosh75287]

THIS is VERY FINE work! Thank you! If I can't find my usual stand-by powders, I'll be more confident about buying BE-86 to use.

One question: Did you by chance measure the base diameter of the unfired reload, before firing? I know that some reloaders regard change in base diameter > 0.0005" as a definite "BACK OFF" indicator.

This IS NOT a CRITICISM, just me, wondering.

 

[Nick_C_S]

Good work-ups. Good data. Thorough. We appreciate it.

Next time, give us the Standard Deviation numbers too

Your velocities are amazingly consistent. So your SD's would be a sight to behold.

 

[Sevens]

SD's impress more more more when the control group is more more more than 5 shots. And my stoopid Chrony only allows a maximum string of 10. And it seems like I am the only guy on the planet who finds that to be ludicrous. But anyway, that is a whole other rant.

As for the case head expansion-- would that also not be quite dependent on the chamber/handgun?

 

[Nick_C_S]

SD's impress more more more when the control group is more more more than 5 shots.

True. But I'd still like to see them.

And my stoopid Chrony only allows a maximum string of 10.

Mine too (I think we have the same stoopid Chrony). With mine, I've gotten to just doing a bunch of strings of six (particularly with revolver), and then figuring out the total SD by hand. As long as all the strings are six (or whatever amount), you can simply add up each SD (displayed on the Chrony) and divide by the number of strings - and that'll give you the SD for the entire bunch.

And it seems like I am the only guy on the planet who finds that to be ludicrous.

You're not the only one. I find it equally ludicrous.

 

[pctechdude]

I will get to the sd's when I get home. Currently at the barn cleaning horse stall lol....however on the note of case expansion my cases come out around 0.386 when full lengthed sized.

I did test the 5.7gr load. Cases were R-P. And loaded at 1.125" except for one which wanted to sit at 1.128" lol

Wait for it....

1084fps
1092fps
1106fps
1100fps
1103fps

ES 22fps
Avg 1097
SD 8.94
Variance SD 80

Case expansion at the web, 0.386~0.388 all cases fell back into the factory Glock barrel. A little tighter trying to put the in the lone wolf barrel. But still go in all the way.

I'm going to say that observing this, I have a feeling that it could be increased but why? I hit 1100fps or slightly exceeded that number in what I'd say is a safe level.

When you can push a 147gr bullet supersonic I'd say that's a good day. I'd play with the hornady Xtp 147's but the sharp transition makes it tough to seat them longer. However the Golden Sabers are long but due to the small driving band, the rest of the bullets is smaller and much less invasive compared to the gold dot or Xtp.

 

[sawdustdad]

I picked up a couple pounds of BE-86 a few months ago with the intention of doing a comparison with my venerable Unique loads in 9mm. I understand they are close in burn rate, and the loads provided by Alliant are similar for the two powders.

Your data is truly excellent. Now you've sparked my interest--perhaps enough to get going on my own testing.

Thank you for doing this and for posting your results. It's stuff like this that makes this forum so valuable.

One question--are you weighing each charge individually or are you using a powder measure to drop the charges? Just wondering if this type of consistency is achievable with a progressive press?

 

[skizzums]

I picked up two pounds a ways back. It was expensive as it was new, 29.99 at big box. I bought it for 9mm, but free reading the "advertised" performance in even big bore magnums,i am kind of holding onto it in hopes that when I finally build a .22 TCM that it might run it well and cure the complaints of the flame and piercing volumes of lil gun or h110. Likely it won't work, but I have many powders that I am so accustomed to for 9mm/38/357 that I don't feel the need to UAE it there when itiky won't be easily replaced. But with the flash suppression and the steady high numbers, why wouldn't it be a good choice in a TCM that shares a similar case size of a 9mm? I could run it high with a mag primer, heavy crimp and a heavy for caliber bullet, and for some odd reason I just feel its right on the edge between FAST and TOO FAST to cycle. Maybe a silly idea, but would be valuable if it worked

 

[Brutus]

What's the burn rate and how does it meter?
Had the same problem with my old Shooting Chorno, this year I purchased a Competition Electrons digital pro with the Bluetooth adapter, now my strings are whatever I want them to be and they automatically get loaded into my tablet as I shoot. Free APP puts all data into a nice summary page, couldn't be happier with it.

 

[Doyle]

What's the burn rate and how does it meter?

Burn rate is supposed to be similar to Unique or Power Pistol but with a flash suppressant. All reports I've heard is that it meters much better than either. I just bought a lb to try with medium velocity .357 and .44 mag loads.

 

[pctechdude]

whenever I do a load workup, or load to max I use my RCBS Chargemaster to dispense the powder. Gets rid of the variance and any over charges. While a little slower, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I have loaded rounds on my progressive using BE-86 however and it is very accurate. Usually +- 0.1~0.2 through my RCBS case activated measure.

If I load these using my single stage lee press, I get very little spread on length, 99.8% right on the money. I usually get no more variance then 0.001~0.0015. Due to my progressive the die plate has some play and cause the variance to go 0.002~0.008.

That's my only gripe with the Pro2000 press I have is the die plate having play. Other than that, it's loaded in excess of 250,000 rounds and has only needed cleaned or light maintenance. It's the auto indexing version with bullet feeder.

 

[Average Joe]

I have been waiting for my LGS to get some BE86 in stock. Love to try it, without paying shipping and hazmat fees.

 

[vaalpens]

You are really pushing those 9mm loads. I did chrono a couple of BE-86 loads a couple of weeks ago.

SIG P229 3.9"
357sig
COL:1.150"
RMR 124gr JHP BE86 7.6gr CCI500
Average:1259
ES:18
SD:6.8
PF:156
Velocities:1256, 1268, 1250, 1263, 1259

SIG SP2022 3.9"
9mm
COL:1.060"
Berrys 124gr HBFPTP BE86 5.6gr CCI500
8Average:1076
ES:28
SD:11.4
PF:133
Velocities:1076, 1083, 1067, 1091, 1063

 

[Kosh75287]

As for the case head expansion-- would that also not be quite dependent on the chamber/handgun?

I guess it could be, though I think 0.0005" increase in web diameter would not be discernible by anything going into nor out of MOST chambers. It IS small enough that it takes a very precise caliper to measure it.

I may not have the numerical value correct,so I'll double check it, but I believe that's the number I keep reading about.

Okay, I found a link concerning what I am talking about, but they give examples of case head expansion for rifle cartridges, only. It appears that it's most reliable when measured using unfired or once-fired brass.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...-trick-monitoring-pressure-your-rifle-reloads

 

[pctechdude]

It depends on the case expansion especially around the web area, especially in pistols. I shot these in my factory barrel for my Glock 19 gen 4, which even though Glock has improved the case support over the years, they are still pretty loose chambers compared to others.

The underwood 147gr +p+ in this gun swells the case web area to around 0.393~0.394. That's when you know it's pushing it's pressure limits, those won't even go back into my factory glock barrel! P.s. I tend to throw that brass away when I shoot them lol...

All of these empty casings would drop into my factory barrel and lone wolf barrel without force, that barrel has a very tight chamber and throat. It can't even chamber Federal 124gr or 147gr HST's because it jams them right into the grooves

Vaalpens, those 124's you shot are loaded quite a ways in there. The Alliant guide has a listed max of 5.8gr for a 124gr fmj at 1.12" You've only reduced by .2 gr and dropped .60" in the overall length. I know the berry's hollow base bullets are a little longer than standard FMJ or RN's of the same weight. If they shoot good that's a plus, I would have dropped the charge a little more and worked up. I, personally have never been a fan of short seating rounds, especially in 9mm or even 40 cal, just for the sake of setback and pressures would rise quick.

 

[vaalpens]

The COL of 1.060" is based on the suggested COL from Berry's for the HB Flat Point TP bullets.

I actually started my load workup from 4.6gr of BE-86 with .1gr increments up to 5.6gr. My velocity is still below the Alliant MAX velocity of 1167fps, so I am comfortable with my load.

I have also now tested a 40s&w load using BE-86. The accuracy was good, but it seems I need to up the pressure a bit if I want to see more consistency:

SIG P229 3.9"
40S&W
COL: 1.142"
Xtreme, 165gr, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.9gr, CCI500
Average: 893
ES: 33
SD: 14.5
Force: 292
PF: 147
Velocities: 872, 885, 904, 905, 902

ES 22fps
Avg 1097
SD 8.94
Variance SD 80

I have only lately started looking at chrono numbers. What is the "Variance SD" number of 80 and the significance of it?

 

[pctechdude]

the variance sd is the average of the squared differences...

On those 40's I'd recommend dropping the OAL to around 1.125" Should see the velocity increase then, as right now you probably are pretty low in pressure at that length.

Vaalpen did you run each 9mm 124gr through the chronograph? Like your work up? I ask because in my testing I've found the velocity increases only to an extant, then becomes flat and at that point you're only raising pressure not velocity. For me 9mm has shown that extensively in my testing when working up. Some powders actually will start decreasing in velocity with more powder yet you're raising pressures above safe limits

on a side note, try an 180gr xtp or gold dot in 40 with 8.0gr of longshot behind it. Max load per hodgdon's website. The website says almost 1160fps out of a 4" barrel. My old M&P compact 40 3.5" barrel delivered 1175fps. Hold on tight! lol

 

[vaalpens]

the variance sd is the average of the squared differences...

I read up on it, but will need to wrap my head around it and see if/how it gives me a better indication of how good the load is.

On those 40's I'd recommend dropping the OAL to around 1.125" Should see the velocity increase then, as right now you probably are pretty low in pressure at that length.

Thanks for the observation. This was something I was thinking about also since I started looking at the chrono numbers. My next load workup for 40 already uses a 1.125" COL.

Vaalpen did you run each 9mm 124gr through the chronograph? Like your work up? I ask because in my testing I've found the velocity increases only to an extant, then becomes flat and at that point you're only raising pressure not velocity. For me 9mm has shown that extensively in my testing when working up. Some powders actually will start decreasing in velocity with more powder yet you're raising pressures above safe limits

My load workup has always been working on accuracy, and then chrono the load to see where I am. I have been debating if I should change it around to and do chrono work first to find the cut-off/max point, and then work on accuracy. It will be difficult to work on both at the same time at my range.

on a side note, try an 180gr xtp or gold dot in 40 with 8.0gr of longshot behind it. Max load per hodgdon's website. The website says almost 1160fps out of a 4" barrel. My old M&P compact 40 3.5" barrel delivered 1175fps. Hold on tight! lol

Thanks for sharing. Those are some high numbers for a 40. I tend to explore the higher numbers in my 357sig, and leave the 40 to modest velocities. My current highest velocity for 40 is Autocomp 6.7, COL 1.132" with MG 165gr JHP which runs at 1070fps. It is a nice load and I should be able to explore the maximum of 7.1gr.

 

[pctechdude]

I agree it is a pain trying to do both! I usually do a load workup, test through chronograph to check for issues, and document all the numbers. I also lay a tarp down to catch the brass and place each piece back into a plastic baggy with the corresponding load data on it.

Then once home I analyze the casings and primers for pressure signs. From there then I check for accuracy on the observed safe data.

For the 165, I used a gold dot bullet, 8.8gr longshot. 1.130 OAL CCI Small Pistol Primer. 3.5" Barrel M&P Compact

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