Battle Rifle Decisions on a Budget

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Derek Zeanah

New member
I'm afraid that if I don't purchase the firearms I want soon then I may lose my ability to do so.
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I've got a CMP Garand (and a 'B' grade receiver coming in) that I really like -- am planning on sending this off to someone like Fulton Armory or Orion as soon as I can come up with the money, then adding something like the side-mounted scope mount that Fulton offers, or the McCann mount. I've also got a couple of handguns that I'm happy with. I don't have an evil, nasty, baby-killing "assault weapon"
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though, and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to purchase one.

So, it's time. The problem is one of money -- the wife is in medical school, and finances will remain tight until after her residency is over (assume 4-5 years from now). I'll need to sell off some stuff to justify the purchase, and I'd like to keep the cost to around $500 is possible. I figure that it's OK to "settle" some now, as I can send the gun off to a good 'smith once money is less of an issue. I'm not looking for MOA accuracy either -- if the rifle can consistently hit a 12 inch target at 300 yards then it'll do any job I can see using it for -- if I need more than that then I'll turn to the M1.

I'd love to hear your opinions, and would *especially* love to hear from you if you've got something you'd be willing to trade for (think photo gear, guns, and SCUBA equipment)
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I'm looking for a rifle to do the job of the M-16 I used years ago (hopefully better), and I'm thinking about some sort of scope eventually -- something like an Aimpoint, Acog, HOLOsight, etc. (All are toys I have no experience with).

So, lemme know what you think. Here are the options as I see them:

1) AR-15: Big advantage here is familiarity -- it's been years, but I bet I can still field strip an M-16A2, reassemble, and function check it in EIB time. It's easy to keep it on-target for rapid fire, and surplus ammo seems extremely affordable. I'm just not convinced that the 5.56 mm round is a terribly effective round, especially at longer ranges.

2) M-14 clones. Now these seem like serious rifles. Accurate, durable, great trigger, plenty of 'smiths to make them shoot MOA if I change my mind about the importance of accuracy. But the price is a killer. The Fulton Armory folks seem to think well of the ChiCom receivers though -- anyone know where I can find a safe Norinco or Polytech for sale?

3) HK-91 built from a parts kit on an American-made frame: I'm ruling these out because I'm planning on reloading the brass. I know they're Jeff Cooper's choice if he had to equip an army.
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4) FAL clone built from a parts kit: this is where I'm heading right now. It would seem that I could buy a rifle from AIM Surplus using the STG-58 parts on an Imbel receiver for a reasonable price. Can anyone comment on quality? If the quality is marginal, is there any reason I couldn't fix that later by sending it off to a decent gunsmith or (preferably) doing the work myself? Is there a better option for buying an FAL?

Thanks. Sorry this sounds so vague, but the only one of these rifles I have any experience with is the AR-15 (in its M16-A1 and A2 varieties). There really isn't any place locally that I can go and shoot the others for comparison.
 
Build an AR-15. Cost for a completed upper (headspaced, test fired), stripped lower, and complete parts kit is around $600, depending on where you purchase. Assembly is straight forward. Got to the discussion forums on AR15.com for all the info you need.
 
Except for the HK I've already got all the rifles your talking about (including the CMP M1). First, rule out the M-14 type - to expensive. Even Polytech/Norincos are going for $600 these days and that doesn't even include the $250 you gotta spend (reheat treat, new bolt, etc.) to make them safe to shoot. Though, my M1A would be the first rifle I'd grab in a TEOTWAWKI type scenario.

You should be able to build your own AR type rifle for $550 - $600. Buy a lower receiver. Then get an upper kit mail-order from one of the companies that advertised in Shotgun News. The pluses are it's easy, it doesn't take any special tools or skills, and you can get exactly what you want - flat top, 16", 20", 24", A2, A1, stainless, etc. The minus is when your done you still got a "poodle popper."

Building a FAL is a fun project, but a lot more complicated than putting an AR together. Two buddies and I went together and built four last year. Imbel receivers were $300 (I think they may be down to $250 now, add $25 for an FFL transfer fee), select kits were $225. Then from Brownells we bought some special tools, receiver wrench, head space gauges, etc. We spent $250, which we split three ways. And that's in addition to one of my buddies having a complete commercial machine shop with bead blast cabinet, CNC lathe & milling machine, and misc tools and presses. Then on top of all this you gotta get the American made parts to make it legal, so you spend another $150 per rifle.

Bottom line.... build and AR from a kit. You know the rifle, it ain't that hard, and it fits your pocket book. Plus, somebody's gotta pop those poodles.
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-- Kernel

[This message has been edited by Kernel (edited April 23, 2000).]
 
Many of the inexpensive assembled FALs are poorly put together. I've heard of locking shoulders that had been hand filed complete with metal shavings still in the action. Some of these needed to be reworked to get them to function properly. There's also the issue of which parts are US and which are not.

I think doing it yourself and farming out work such as barrel/headspace and attaching the muzzlebrake is a much better way to go. I went this way and have only had to pay $80 on top of the price of parts for my FAL.
 
Your best bet is to go one of two ways here:
1)Gradually piece together an AR15. Gunsmoke Enterprises in Okeechobee, Florida sells stripped PWA AR lowers for $110 shipped. M&A sales (see their ad in Shotgun News) sells a complete kit minus lower for $400. You can either buy both at once and probably be into your AR for around $550 or you can buy the lower now and buy the rest as you can afford it, a piece at a time.
2)Buy one of the US parts AK47 clones on the market. They sell for ~$400, which would leave you with enough money for a few mags and a case of ammo. Not going to be near as accurate as an AR, but probably more durable and theoretically more reliable. (I say theoretically as I have yet to have a reliability problem with a factory AR.)
Good luck in your choice.
 
You already have one heck of a battle rifle in your inventory with the Garand. If I were you I think as many of the others do that the do it yourself AR is the way to go for now.
Hopefully you will be able to purchase what you really want when the money frees up some.
Remember to do what you can at the polls etc.
Best to you,
Hank
 
I own one of each of the weapons you listed so I'll tell you what I think of them for whatever it's worth.

The M-14 is a top of the line rifle with a top of the line price tag to go along with it. It's accurate, reliable, rugged, spare parts are easy to come by and there are a lot of folks out there that know how to work on them or upgrade them further if you want to squeeze a little more performance out of them. The only problem I have with the M-14 is that they aren't cheap so if you are on a budget, this probably won't be a good choice. As for the Chinese rifles, after you get done buying the rifle and having it heat treated and the USGI parts installed, you are looking at a price tag similar to what a new Springfield M1A would cost in the first place. The other thing to consider is that Springfield has a warrenty, China doesn't.

The FAL is my next choice on your list. they are fairly cheap if built from a parts kit and even the quality parts kits aren't too bad in price. The FAL is ergonomic, reliable, a little less accurate than the M-14 but still pretty good. The adjsutable gas regulator is an excellent idea that is a real boon to functioning. Parts for the present time are still available and magazines are dirt cheap as well. If I have a complaint about the FAL, it's that the sights are rather crude compared to the M-14 with the front sight needing a special tool to adjust and the windage screws that aren't nearly as precise or as easily adjustable. All-in-all, a good battle rifle though.

The AR-15 comes in third here since it's such a familiar weapon with a lot of parts and spare magazines out there. The accuracy is very good and the sights on the A2 versions are very good as well. While it's reputation for reliability has been questioned, I have had no problems as long as you keep it clean. I am a weapons maintence fanatic so I can't say I have ever had one malfunction on me but if you don't like to clean weapons, you might want to think about a different weapon.
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The HK-91 comes in last here in my book. While it is an accurate and reliable weapon, it really falls apart in the handeling chacteristics. The safety is hard to reach without shifting you grip, the magazine release is too far foreward as well, the stock is a bit short for American style shooting with your head lower than German style marksmanship, sights need a special tool to adjust, the trigger is pretty poor, the charging handle is awkward to work with and it also lacks a bolt hold open device so your only way of knowing it's empty is a "click" when you expect to hear a "bang". Another problem I have with it is that brass is seldom if ever found so it's a reloaders nighmare. I shoot mainly berdan primers in mine so when they get lost it's no big deal. To be frank, I just don't care that much for the HK. For as accurate and reliable as they can be, they just really loose their place in my rankings just because the folks at Heckler and Koch didn't think as much about the shooter as they did the weapon when they designed it. I don't have any experience with the alunimum reciever clones so I can't comment on how well they do or don't work. I just know I don't trust them myself since that's not the way H&K designed them.
 
for a budjet gun the ak family has a lot to offer.for a little more money the vepor 308 is one hell of a gun.its still hard to beat a m1a though.go on a tight budjet for about 3 months.dont buy anything and ill bet you can come up with the differance to get the m1a if you really try hard.remember there is always layaway.you wont get to shoot it right away but you will get to own one .if time is not on your side most dealers can work out fininacing through a finance company for the m1a.some even offer free financing for up to twelve months.i know ours does.that would make your little m1a about a extra $100 dollars a month after putting down that downpayment of $500.
 
I know I am going to get grief for this one but the Mini-14 is a real value in a .223 semi-auto. Don't expect match accuracy but within 100 yards your target will be taken out and it is very reliable. As for going into battle ?? No. But who is going into battle?

I got one about a year ago for the Y2K thing. That said, sometimes I wish I had saved money for a Springfield M1A or an AR15. Still, $450 is still a lot less than 1 to 2 grand and I think I can defend adequately with the Mini-14.
 
The main thing wrong with a Mini14 for this scenario is that quality hicap mags for it are expensive and hard to find. And if you buy the aftermarket mags, you are asking for malfunctions.
 
AK-47...stamped receiver...inexpensive fun....get a recoil buffer for it...then just shoot it....don't mess with the furniture...to many folks want to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.Ya can drop them.. run them over...they go bang!For some reason, lots of people seem to discount this rifle as a piece of junk.Or think they need MOA accuracy at 700 yds.! Go to AK-47.net and do your research.
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"...something to take the place of / AR15..."

Get a pre-ban regular ( not the thumbhole ) stocked sks that uses the AK mags. Understand they may still be under $300 if you look in the right place. Reliability only a bit less than AK, accuracy far superior to AK/ mini 14 at about 2" at 100 yards, mags cheap. For even less, an sks with 20 round fixed mag. A few years back you could have picked up 3 sks rifles, 3 20 round fixed mags, and had 25 bucks left from $5OO. Just my opinion.
 
Don't get an HK. Valid opinions regarding everything else.

If you want a fairly inexpensive "urban combat" weapon, perhaps consider an M1 Carbine. I got one recently, and love it. I'm losing my A2.
 
I would concur on the M1 Carbine as a nice little short range weapon. It is not going to be very effective out past 200 yards, but you can get one pretty cheap ($350-500) and I tapped off my rear sight and stuck one of the cheap scope mounts on the rear dove tail. Then I added a nice BSA 5moa red dot sight from MidwayUSA for $60. 30 rounds mags can be obtained from Centerfire Systems for about $11 a mag. I found a bunch of 15 round mags at a gun show for $2 each!

The only down fall to the M1 Carbine is the ammo is pretty expensive. We are talking $195 for a 1000 rounds. If you have a reloader like my Dillon Precision RL 550B, then you can reload the rounds for about $120-130 for a 1000 which is very nice. Reloading components for the M1 Carbine are pretty cheap too.

So if you want something for urban use, consider the M1 Carbine. If you are out on the open plain, seriously consider a .308. I liked that idea about saving up and buying the M1A. I basically did that. I used some credit card access checks at a real low interest rate and had it paid off in about three months. And that was while I was a student and only making $7.52 and hour.I guarentee you will not regret the purchase of an M1A. Mags a a little expensive, but you can find them around for about $32.00 if you look hard enough.

Good luck.
 
To RikWriter:

I agree. My experience with USA mags is a crap shoot. I have bought a 10 rounder and it does not extract easily despite some attempts at modification. Then I found a 30 rounder for 15 bucks. I had to do a little filing but this thing has been perfect - go figure.

I think I would be quite happy with a Ruger factory 10 rounder, but I don't think they exist (after all the M1 Garand had an 8 round clip and that seemed to be adequate).
 
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