Barrel Length

P

ParaGlock

Inactive
Well, given that I started such a lively debate in the Revolver Competition topic... :)

I have a 6" .357 and a 2.5" .357. I have always wondered if I'm missing out on something by not having a 4". Does it buy you anything? I'm thinking that it would be more accurate that the snubby, but still more concealable than the 6".

What say you? Is the 4" the ultimate general purpose length, or is it a case of the worst of both worlds?

-- PG
 
When under 4 inches with a 357 magnum, you will lose the magnum velocities due to the fact powder is still being burned and the necessary pressures just wont develop.

BTW, it was quite lively indeed. :)
 
Since I don't really do any competition/target shooting, I prefer 3" or 4". My revolvers are for home defense and I don't really see the need for a barrel longer than that for that purpose. Also, 6"+ barrel guns are heavier and I like to have something that the spousal unit is more comfortable with if needed.

I was at a friend's ranch is S. Texas last weekend and took my S&W 686 4" barrel. Just shooting for fun, a 6" barrel would have been better for that purpose though.
 
YES, you need a 4" wheel gun. Buy or order one immediately. I have a 6" 686 and a 4" 66 and I was surprised at how little difference there is in accuracy between them (in the hands of a good shooter). Out to 17 yards range, they group about the same (under 2" with careful slow fire). At 25 yards, the 6" has a slight edge (DUHHHH!). I think 4" is the optimum length unless you just have to have snub for concealment. 4" really is the best all-around gun.:)
 
Fours are just plain handy for many things.

Don't sweat the velocity situation just because you have a 2½ incher. It will be vastly superior to a .28 spec in your barrel.

There is often more velocity difference between identical guns than experienced by differences in barrel lengths.

I enjoy my 2½, 3, 4, 5 and six inch .357s

Sam
 
CRm Sam,

While I agree with you on your statement regarding the velocity difference between like guns, I humbly disagree with your statement regarding barrel length.

Here is an example of a 9MM Luger load that was calculated by QuickLOAD Internal ballistics software http://www.neconos.com/. The speed difference for the same powder charge and bullet weight is 238 FPS. The only variable I changed was the barrel lengths for the first one I used 2 inches for the second I used 4 inches.

Knowledge is power


2 Inch Barrel

Input data: Date: 15-Feb-2002 Time: 19:01:16
Cartridge................. = 9 mm Luger (Para)
Projectile type........... = 9 mm, 124 gr, Berrys TMJ with flatbase

Max.avg.pressure(Piezo CIP)= 34084 psi Shot start / init pressure = 2175 psi
Projectile weight (gr)= 124 Groove caliber (in)= 0.355
Length of cartridge (in)= 1.061 Length of case (in)= 0.745
Case capacity(Grains Water)= 13.31 Length of projectile (in)= 0.535
Length of barrel (in)= 2.000
**** Values calculated:
Seating depth (in)= 0.219 Volume displaced (gn H2O)= 5.48
Comb.chamber volume(gn H2O)= 7.82 Projectile travel (in)= 1.474
**** Input data:
Propellant type........... = Vihtavuori N320
Charge weight..........(gr)= 3.9 Load density......(g/cu.cm)= 0.498
Heat of Explosion (cal/lb)= 448530 Ratio of spec. heats cp/cv = 1.229
Solid density (gr/cu.in)= 349.0 Weighting factor.......... = 0.8
Burning rate factor Ba(1/s)= 3.585 Pro-/degressivity factor a = 1.029
Burning limit ......... z1 = 0.5 Combust.Chamber Vb(ft³)= 1.793748E-5
Factor.................. b = 1.662 X-S.Area of Bore A(ft²)= 6.739505E-4
Bulk density (gr/cu.in)= 141.6 Projectile mass mp (lb)= 1.771384E-2
Loading ratio (%)= 88.9 Projectile travel x(ft)= 1.228346E-1

**** Results calculated:
Maximum pressure ........ = 30834 psi Way of projectile at Pmax = 0.20 in
Muzzle velocity ......Ve = 883 fps Muzzle pressure ......Pe = 9127 psi
Project. energy at muzzle = 215 ft.lbs Fraction of powder burnt = 100 %
Projectile travel time from 10% Pmax to muzzle = .29 ms

6 Inch Barrel

**** Input data: Date: 15-Feb-2002 Time: 19:02:54
Cartridge................. = 9 mm Luger (Para)
Projectile type........... = 9 mm, 124 gr, Berrys TMJ with flatbase

Max.avg.pressure(Piezo CIP)= 34084 psi Shot start / init pressure = 2175 psi
Projectile weight (gr)= 124 Groove caliber (in)= 0.355
Length of cartridge (in)= 1.061 Length of case (in)= 0.745
Case capacity(Grains Water)= 13.31 Length of projectile (in)= 0.535
Length of barrel (in)= 6.000
**** Values calculated:
Seating depth (in)= 0.219 Volume displaced (gn H2O)= 5.48
Comb.chamber volume(gn H2O)= 7.82 Projectile travel (in)= 5.474
**** Input data:
Propellant type........... = Vihtavuori N320
Charge weight..........(gr)= 3.9 Load density......(g/cu.cm)= 0.498
Heat of Explosion (cal/lb)= 448530 Ratio of spec. heats cp/cv = 1.229
Solid density (gr/cu.in)= 349.0 Weighting factor.......... = 0.8
Burning rate factor Ba(1/s)= 3.585 Pro-/degressivity factor a = 1.029
Burning limit ......... z1 = 0.5 Combust.Chamber Vb(ft³)= 1.793748E-5
Factor.................. b = 1.662 X-S.Area of Bore A(ft²)= 6.739505E-4
Bulk density (gr/cu.in)= 141.6 Projectile mass mp (lb)= 1.771384E-2
Loading ratio (%)= 88.9 Projectile travel x(ft)= 4.56168E-1

**** Results calculated:
Maximum pressure ........ = 30834 psi Way of projectile at Pmax = 0.20 in
Muzzle velocity ......Ve = 1121 fps Muzzle pressure ......Pe = 2040 psi
Project. energy at muzzle = 346 ft.lbs Fraction of powder burnt = 100 %
Projectile travel time from 10% Pmax to muzzle = .61 ms

WARNING: Near Maximum Average Pressure - tolerances can cause dangerous pressures !
Real maximum of pressure inside barrel.
End of combustion before the projectile passes muzzle.
 
I been outnumbered.:)

I see a 238fps difference between 6" and 2" barrels. Calculated barrels and chambers. Reasonable difference for length change.

Part of my point is from experiencing as much as 200 fps difference in like guns in the shorter barrel lengths. Chronographed.

Now....my 5" Model 27 will clock a particular mild 125gr .357 load at 1450fps on a standard day. That same load clocks from one of the 2½' guns at 1330.

Loss due to the short barrel yes. But still well above modern standard .38spec performance.

Rest of point is though there is a loss, the .357 is not wasted in short barrels.

But you never know for shure till you chrono a given load in your gun.

Sam
 
C.R. Sam - I like that "I've been outnumbered".

ryucasta: the program Quickload - Do you find that the information for straight-walled pistol cartridges checks out with either your Chrono or published data? The reason I ask is that I thought the formulas used in the program were only accurate for bottle nosed rifle cartridges fired in standard chambers so I haven't purchased it yet. Also I can't see how they can figure the effect of varying revolver cylinder gaps, cylinder lengths and forcing cone angles.

Elliot
 
It's been my experience that the spread is anywhere between +/- 5 percent between the software and the chrono. I mainly use this software as a starting point when I'm working up a load.

I have found that this software takes a lot of the guesswork out of making a load, since it can do what if scenarios. So lets say I want to develop a load with a certain PF it will give me a list of powders that well help me determine whats best.

Cartridge : 9 mm Luger (Para)
Bullet : 9 mm, 124 gr, Berrys TMJ
Cartridge O.A.L. L6 : 1.061 inch or 26.95 mm
Barrel Length : 6.0 inch or 152.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Muzzle Velocity: 1000 fps or 304 m/s

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load ordering can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz Btime
% Grains fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------
Norma R123 107.7 7.8 1000 62.8 15037 3300 0.773
Vihtavuori N105 95.2 5.4 1000 77.5 16509 2718 0.749
Vihtavuori N350 74.9 4.1 1000 96.5 17365 2356 0.747
Alliant POWER PISTOL 78.0 4.6 1000 76.1 17697 2594 0.745
Vihtavuori 3N37 74.3 4.3 1000 92.2 17744 2415 0.743
Alliant HERCO 102.1 4.2 1000 90.8 17901 2472 0.756
Alliant UNIQUE 92.7 3.8 1000 94.5 18144 2385 0.751
Alliant 2400 106.0 7.1 1000 54.9 18368 2640 0.733
Vihtavuori N330 74.5 3.6 1000 99.8 18426 2125 0.733
Alliant BLUE DOT 109.5 6.1 1000 64.6 18647 2598 0.737
Ramshot Enforcer 113.3 7.9 1000 54.2 18858 2693 0.726
Alliant BULLSEYE 69.7 3.3 1000 95.6 18942 2285 0.731
Acc.Arms No.5 67.3 5.0 1000 79.1 18973 2468 0.735
Ramshot Silhouette 67.3 4.2 1000 92.3 19046 2328 0.731
Winchester WAP 67.6 4.2 1000 92.0 19091 2329 0.731
Winchester 540 64.6 4.7 1000 87.0 19203 2381 0.730
Hodgdon Universal 73.7 3.5 1000 99.7 19209 2163 0.745
Ramshot True Blue 64.8 4.7 1000 86.8 19216 2381 0.729
Acc.Arms No.2 72.4 3.7 1000 95.8 19396 2253 0.727
Vihtavuori N340 75.7 3.8 1000 96.9 19697 2193 0.726
Vihtavuori N110 126.7 7.9 1000 53.9 20373 2723 0.713
Ramshot Zip 58.8 3.6 1000 99.9 20890 2002 0.716
Winchester 231 58.8 3.6 1000 99.9 20890 2002 0.716
Hodgdon HP38 58.0 3.5 1000 100.0 21194 1960 0.713
Vihtavuori N320 74.7 3.3 1000 100.0 21196 1833 0.712
Hodgdon H110 122.6 9.4 1000 45.5 21215 2687 0.707
Winchester 296 127.6 9.8 1000 41.5 21303 2841 0.709
Alliant GREEN DOT 88.1 3.2 1000 100.0 21644 1881 0.720
Alliant RED DOT 91.5 3.0 1000 100.0 23150 1766 0.706
Hodgdon Clays 90.6 3.1 1000 100.0 24693 1700 0.693
Norma R1 89.4 3.3 1000 100.0 25664 1666 0.691
Hodgdon H4227 136.4 8.8 1000 42.7 26300 2243 0.672
IMR 4227 137.3 8.9 1000 41.9 26887 2203 0.668
Vihtavuori N310 69.9 3.0 1000 100.0 27776 1563 0.669
Acc.Arms 1680 127.9 9.9 1000 40.2 28873 2295 0.660
IMR 4198 148.7 9.9 1000 36.8 31344 2068 0.648 ! HOT LOAD !
Vihtavuori N120 151.3 10.3 1000 38.6 32372 2175 0.645 ! HOT LOAD !
Hodgdon H4198 156.4 9.9 1000 36.0 33332 2017 0.640 ! HOT LOAD !
Alliant Reloder- 7 163.3 11.5 1000 35.3 42610 2431 0.627 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N130 158.4 11.1 1000 34.4 44189 2001 0.612 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4895 159.8 11.5 1000 30.6 51961 1801 0.598 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 200 160.2 11.6 1000 32.9 53510 2180 0.599 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N133 163.9 11.3 1000 32.5 53752 1806 0.595 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 10 153.5 11.8 1000 29.0 55649 1835 0.593 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H322 151.7 11.3 1000 29.6 55678 1788 0.592 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot TAC 153.2 11.8 1000 29.0 55893 1833 0.593 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon VARGET 162.8 11.8 1000 27.4 71087 1652 0.576 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Acc.Arms 2230 156.4 12.0 1000 28.0 71873 1745 0.577 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H335 149.2 12.0 1000 27.4 76453 1666 0.572 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-12 156.7 12.1 1000 28.1 78689 1633 0.570 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
 
A few feet per second in cartridges like the .357 or 9mm is kinda like picking fly crap out of pepper. As long as the velocity remains high enough to expand the hollowpoint. However in slower cartridges like the .44 Special or the .45 Colt a few feet per second may make a big difference.

Some of the advantages not covered.

In a revolver you struggle to conceal the cylinder and the grip. If you can conceal them, you can conceal a four inch barrel just as well as a two inch one. On the other hand a six inch barrel is pushing it in most concealment situations.

With an IWB holster; a four inch barrel gives you more control over the weapon/holster flipping out.

Muzzle blast is less from a four inch than a two inch gun.

While velocity differences may not make that much difference most people can shoot the four inch barrel better than a two incher due to the longer sight radius.

Of course if all this gives you a headache you could just get a revolver with a three inch barrel instead.
:p
 
ryucasta: Thanks for the program info. I must say, that's a pretty impressive list of powders it came up with. Very Nice.

Elliot
 
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