BAN THE CONFEDERATE FLAG?

B

Boneyard

New member
Being a southerner I am upset about certain political groups wanting to ban the Cofederate Flag...I had ancestors die for that flag...it's my Family's heritage, why should I have to give it up?..
I know some people are saying it's racist,and unfortunately some racist groups are using it as their symbol, which I believe is wrong .
I am not racist and I do not use the flag as a racist symbol; does anyone feel the same way ? are there any people of color that would like to tell me how you feel about this?
I sometimes feel guilty if I have a shirt or hat on with the flag on it..and I don't think thats right..
fill me in folks..

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A MASTER OF HIS ART REVEALS IT IN EVERYTHING HE DOES
 
I think you have no reason to feel guilty. Maybe scared to be beat up, but not guilty. ;)

The Confederate flag is just a piece of colored canvas. Whatever prople attach to it, good, bad, racist, inclusive, wholesome or vicious, reflects on the person, not on the object.

Why this flag is becoming such a bone of contention in the year 2000, 135 years after the closing of the War of Southern Independence and the official abolition of slavery, is very indicative of where the Left is now. The flag has become their symbol. A symbol that is supposed to arise anger, divisiveness and a sense of "urgency" that is supposed to drive blacks, minorities and PC zealots to the ballots en masse.

For the rest of us, it is just another part of our dear Nation's past that is being attacked by the Nihilist post-Berlin-wall marxist.

Protect it, defend it, wear it and educate others about it.

It's your job as a thinking American and a Southerner.

And wear it with honesty, candor and pride.

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Private gun ownership is the capital sin in the left's godless religion. Crime is merely a venial mistake.

Check out these gals: www.sas-aim.org

Get some real news at www.worldnetdaily.com
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 416Rigby:
I think you have no reason to feel guilty. Maybe scared to be beat up, but not guilty. ;)

The Confederate flag is just a piece of colored canvas. Whatever prople attach to it, good, bad, racist, inclusive, wholesome or vicious, reflects on the person, not on the object.
[/quote]

This is precisely why the flag should not be flying over the State Capitol in Columbia, and why taking it down was the right thing to do. (That said, now it's time for the NAACP, etc., to stop whining and boycotting, and get on with their lives.) The flag represents the people (per our interpretations of the Second Amendment, individuals) who choose to fly it; it has no meaning at the state level. State symbols are supposed to represent the state, and the hate and discontent that this flag has caused is prima facie evidence that the flag does not represent South Carolina.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Why this flag is becoming such a bone of contention in the year 2000, 135 years after the closing of the War of Southern Independence and the official abolition of slavery, is very indicative of where the Left is now. The flag has become their symbol. A symbol that is supposed to arise anger, divisiveness and a sense of "urgency" that is supposed to drive blacks, minorities and PC zealots to the ballots en masse.

[/quote]

This argument cuts both ways. The Left does not have the market cornered on mindless dogmatism, divisiveness, or anger.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
For the rest of us, it is just another part of our dear Nation's past that is being attacked by the Nihilist post-Berlin-wall marxist.
[/quote]

Well, maybe some of "the rest of us." As noted, the War ended 135 years ago. The Battle Flag belongs alongside the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, the Star-Spangled Banner, Old Glory, and other respected, even adored, symbols of the nation's history. In a museum, in your living room, on your truck, in your heart. Not in your government.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Protect it, defend it, wear it and educate others about it.

It's your job as a thinking American and a Southerner.

And wear it with honesty, candor and pride.

[/quote]

But do all the above as a right of personal expression, not attempting to impose your heritage on others.

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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
Nobody is suggesting a ban on private ownership or even display of the Bars'n'Stars. That would be impossible short of a full-scale gutting of the BoR, especially since the 1st Amendment has the strongest support of them all.

As to banning it's prominent display by state governments, a week ago I would have just shrugged.

But then Vin Suprynowicz, the Libertarian columnist, praised and quoted a book on the history of the Bill of Rights by Yale law professor Akhil Reed Amar titled appropriately enough, "The Bill Of Rights". I scored a copy, just finished it yesterday.

Amar's take is that the original pre-1800 BoR was primarily an instrument to control the central, Federal gov't, although the principles involved should and did at least influence the states.

He then goes on to show that the various principles were intentionally directed against the states after the Civil War via the 14th Amendment. And yes, he makes an excellent case that the private right to arms was among the principles so directed.

But he also goes into the reasons the rest of the BoR needed to be re-aimed at states in graphic detail, in particular freedom of religion, speech, press, habeus corpus and due process.

To support the slave system, the South had to systematically violate every other civil right. Not just against blacks, either - South Carolina had an ordinance against any preacher speaking out against slavery, with a penalty of death on the first offense. Mail was randomly searched looking for "inflammatory" documents that might trigger a slave uprising; ownership of a copy of "Uncle Tom's Cabin" could get a southern WHITE beaten or killed not by a mob, but by the full force of gov't edict. This wasn't isolated events, it was the whole culture.

Boys, it wasn't pretty.

Now combine that with the fact that in at least two cases, flying the Stars'n'Bars above state capitols was instituted only recently, during the early '60s as an anti-integration political statement rather than "a nod to history".

No. Hell no. Sorry Southerners, that flag represents a far worse system than most of us, myself included, ever suspected. And it's recent history is one of deliberate intimidation. You can own it, wear it, display it all you want, and profess ignorance of what it *really* stood for all you want, but for a state to bear that message that can only be described as "un-American" is simply wrong.

(Note on Amar's book: he corroborates Hallbrook's look at the 2nd Amendment as affected by the 14th; both record historical statements and events suggesting that Congress specifically worried about blacks getting bullied to hell and gone in the South and wanted to make sure they were able to keep and bear arms. Both should be a factor in the Emerson case and others.)

Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim March:
Nobody is suggesting a ban on private ownership or even display of the Bars'n'Stars. That would be impossible short of a full-scale gutting of the BoR, especially since the 1st Amendment has the strongest support of them all.
[/quote]

I'd bet that if Kweise Mfume had his way, every image of the Battle Flag (including those still attached to a wearer) would be shredded.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
(Note on Amar's book: he corroborates Hallbrook's look at the 2nd Amendment as affected by the 14th; both record historical statements and events suggesting that Congress specifically worried about blacks getting bullied to hell and gone in the South and wanted to make sure they were able to keep and bear arms. Both should be a factor in the Emerson case and others.)

Jim[/quote]

I have not found Amar's book, yet; does he discuss the violence done to the 14th Amendment by the Supremes in the 1873 Slaughterhouse case? That 5-4 decision has screwed up everything from the Second Amendment to civil rights to the basic implementation of Jefferson's "inalienable rights."


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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
SAGewehr,

1 - What in my post suggested to you that I was talking about the South Carolina case or about flying the flag on "government property"?

2 - What in the left's behavior makes you think that, once the flag is banned from flying on "official" state property, it will not have (in their eyes) to be expunged from our culture altogether?

3 - Boneyard's post was about the culture of the flag and its demonization as a quasi-swastika by a political group whose raison d'etre is to divide and conquer any facet of America which does not respond to their zealot doctrine.

Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

------------------
Private gun ownership is the capital sin in the left's godless religion. Crime is merely a venial mistake.

Check out these gals: www.sas-aim.org

Get some real news at www.worldnetdaily.com
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 416Rigby:
SAGewehr,

1 - What in my post suggested to you that I was talking about the South Carolina case or about flying the flag on "government property"?

2 - What in the left's behavior makes you think that, once the flag is banned from flying on "official" state property, it will not have (in their eyes) to be expunged from our culture altogether?

3 - Boneyard's post was about the culture of the flag and its demonization as a quasi-swastika by a political group whose raison d'etre is to divide and conquer any facet of America which does not respond to their zealot doctrine.

Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

[/quote]

The South Carolina Statehouse has been the major cause of much hate and discontent in this part of the country (I'm in NC); and I apologize if I jumped to an inappropriate conclusion. But as noted elsewhere, personal displays of the flag are pretty well covered under the First Amendment, and government endorsement of the symbol has been the principal bone of contention.

I touched on the Left's continuing crusade in my post about Kwiese Mfume... It's likely they will. Let them whine. The courts have a good enough record in support of the 1st Amendment that I don't think any law banning the flag's display would last long.

I agree with your interpretation of Boneyard's post. As long as there are groups (the KKK springs to mind) who usurp common symbols to promote their own cause, there will be people who see that cause wherever they see the symbol. This is unfortunate, but I don't see what can be done about it. It's a narrow-minded, simplistic, reactionary, antagonistic and downright asinine position, but it's their position, and they are entitled to it. If we can eliminate some of the battles that don't need to be fought (such as the SC statehouse), maybe we can lower the volume of the rhetoric. Frankly, both sides on this issue have lost perspective.

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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken

[This message has been edited by SAGewehr (edited July 24, 2000).]
 
Give me a break. All Lincoln did was nationalize slavery to the federal government.

If they had any sense, the National Association for the Always Complaining People and their federalist suck buddies should be more concerned about atrocities committed under Old Glory than the Battle Flag.

Hell, that Battle Flag represents a kind of freedom and independence that the feds no longer even recognize...case in point, the recent Waco ruling that feds are free to kill and burn anyone they want. No wonder they all recoil at the very mention of it.

Horiuchi's still walking around. Vicki Weaver ain't.

Like Horiuchi's defense, the feds defense was pretty much, in the end, a matter of wrapping themselves up in the flag and walking away.
 
In other news, the Confederate Air Force is either considering changing its name, or is about to hold a vote on the issue of changing its name and what to change it to.

*sigh*

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 24, 2000).]
 
I think others have mentioned this, but the Confederate battle flag isn't the flag of the Confederacy. The Confederacy actually had its own flag. Actually the battle flag that most fly is the Naval version. The original Northern Virginia army version is square and has a white border.

I will continue to fly the Battle Flag without shame. To me it is an international symbol of secession. Something that I support.
 
SAGewehr: Ya, he talks about the Slaughterhouse cases...not quite in enough detail though.

Frank Dixon wrote:

"Hell, that Battle Flag represents a kind of freedom and independence that the feds no longer even recognize..."

Ummm...did you read my post? The *similarities* between slave state actions and that of the current Feds are noteworthy, except the Feds haven't quite gotten that bad yet. Sorry if that upsets anyone, but it seems to be the truth.

Jim
 
All Ya'll (that's plural for y'all) are missing the point about the flag flap in SC. The issue is not one about offending black Americans about an issue that that was indefensable and unfortunate. It is not about forgetting the past. It is not about reminding a segment of our population about a terrible phase of our history.

What it is about is conclusively demonstrating the US is now, has been, and will always be a racist society. Once that premise is accepted the next step is to push hard for "reparations" for offenses committed to the ancestors of American Blacks. This whole movement is below the radar screen for now but look for it to achieve public play. The idea being batted around is the sins of the past are still with us and the only way to set them right is for those responsible for slavery to pay for those sins to those who suffered because of those sins.

Those responsible for pushing the concept of reparations must keep slavery alive. The SC flag flap is merely the first step. Look for movement against all states with confederate residue to come into the limelight. Look also for attention to be paid to civil war battlegrounds because they by and large do not deal with the issue of slavery. Look for lots of pressure to dress up battlegrounds with the legacy of slavery.

Back to reparations. The concept in play is provide (guess who) a cash payment to anyone who suffers the effect of slavery.

How do you spell relief?
T A X R E V O L T !

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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater--1964
 
Boneyard, ye have touched upon the tender spot! I am a transplant to NC (God's Country for those who don't know)originally from Mo. My family were southern in persuasion and in fact a battle was fought on the family farm. My brother has researched and qualified us as son's of the Confederacy,I agree with you 100%. The war was started over States Rights not Slavery. I agree that this should be a case of heratige not hate. The slave issue was pushed by Mr. Horrice Greely a newspaper editor for the New York Times. Mr. Linclon's very words said "If I could end this war without freeing one slave, I would". As a "new and improved" SOB I use the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. One white stripe, two red, a circle of 7 stars on a blue background. This flag looks so much like that of the early "radicals" that I think the South forgot something by changing to the Stars and Bars. Thankfully the chucklehead hate groups haven't landed on this one. If you want to see a picture of it go to the NRA's site, and look at the art they have for sale, it has a great picture of Gen. Jackson and the flag. I am trying not to offend those who see the Stars and Bars as such a "terrible" thing and still honor my ancestors who fought a war that they didn't have a chance in hell of winning. The real problem is again a group decides individual rights like the ACLU suing municipalities and states for using the word God in their symbols. Will they continue to a point where someone is sworn in as a witness in a trial with "I swear to tell the whole truth,nothing but the truth, so help be Bill Clinton"? I agree that our current flag symbolizes a multitude of sins beyond the battle flag of 13 states who said "the federal government has crossed the line", likewise I see the other guys side that this symbol has been used as a symbol of hate. It's too bad the NAACP and the ACLU don't see our current flag that way. The reality of the SC situation was one of economic black mail and a press with an axe to grind. How many of you remember the daily assaults by the press on this one? Then when they did as asked, it wasn't good enough (that's not getting much press). Lesson, compromise, and you keep compromising! That's what's going on today on a multitude of fronts. Hey, what do I know, I'm just a SOB!......................................................................................Join Ed and the Tyranny Response Team (Rights education team) in Knoxville on August 5th to see what you can do to screw up a perfectly nice day for the Knoxville Police. I'm offering $55 for any gun turned in! As others have said,"put your money where your mouth is...." Come help if you can!
 
Ya know, I didn't think I'd ever disagree with ol' Jim, but I do now!. You must be from Ohio or somewhere. I don't know where you got all your information about Southern sociology before, during, and after the War of Northern Aggression ... maybe from some of our gentle northern brothers who helped us so with their gentle reconstruction. My great-grandmother was very young when her father returned home after being released from captivity (captured at Sharpsburg). She lived through reconstruction. We heard many stories of the old South from her. I can't recall a cross word for yankees or blacks from that old lady. She did have sharp things to say about reconstruction, but not about people. Your allusion to how terrible the atmosphere was in the South is another example of the vilification the South suffers every day. And, whoever said it, the day is close when our battle flag will be a banned hate symbol. I do know one thing, if I'm ever dictator for a day, yankees and carpetbaggers will need a visa to get across the Mason-Dixon when I'm through.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LawDog:
In other news, the Confederate Air Force is either considering changing its name, or is about to hold a vote on the issue of changing its name and what to change it to.
*sigh*
LawDog
[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 24, 2000).][/quote]

May I respectfully reccomend The Confederate " AND HOPE SOMEBODY DON"T LIKE IT " Air Force .
And while we are voicing opinions may I ask a question . If any person may burn The American Flag or wear the Nazi flag as a tattoo why is The Stars And Bars so much of a problem ? Freedom of speech reaches out to unpopular speech as well as any other speech . The Supreme Court has ruled that The American Flag burnings are protected by law so what is wrong with flag flyings .
I agree with the others that say it is a big prelude to a money grab for people that were never slaves . Every time they get what they claim is what they need to succeed they think up something else that holds them back . God forbid that they ever admit it is their own faults that they don't succeed . What would Brer Al and Revrin' Jesse have to whine about ?



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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
My 2 cents

I have to agree with sumabich and waitone. The SC flag thing wasn't about removing "things" so we can forget, it was about reminding us every day. I'm from SC so I will vent myself now. I just know that I am tired of having to be ashamed of being white. Not that I am, mind you. I am just supposed to be.

The worst part of this is that the vast number of people I know in this "shameful" state really don't care. I expect that thats how it is everywhere, as long as they get their dole, they will do as the media tells them. At the same time this lack of concern has backfired on the NAACP in some ways. First off, as far as anyone I know can tell, the boycott is a complete failure. CNN and others would like you to think otherwise but I'm here to tell you it ain't so. Sure a few conventions have canceled but by and large (and I mean large) nothing has changed. Myrtle Beach and Charleston are still bloated with yankees and idiots that I am probably related to.

Second, I personally I know 7 members of the NAACP that are now former members because the grew disgusted with the whole thing and they figured out they were being held down by their orginization. Go figure!

Oh well, I'm through for now.

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DUM SPIRO SPERO
While I Breath I Hope

[This message has been edited by JCH (edited July 24, 2000).]
 
bk40
MEGA-DITTO,s ;) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bk40:
:D

Stars and Bars Forever!

Its about pride and heritage, not hate.[/quote]
 
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