Badly carbonized brass

condor bravo

New member
Some time back the indoor range required green ammunition so I stocked up pretty well with Winchester 9mm's, .40s, and .45 acp's (the kind with the small primers), but quit using it when no longer required. So today I pulled out a half box of the .45's that still contained the remainder of the factory fired brass. It was packed in styrofoam inserts and was some five years old. The fired cases had an extreme case of baked on carbon covering half the case that I don't recall were like that right after firing. Spinning a case against steel wool would not remove it but left a pleasant burnished appearance.

So I'm kind of wondering if the carbon deposit and appearance became excessive over time and perhaps aided by the styrofoam? There's no real objection against the carbonized appearance as far as reloading but I assume there is some cleaner that might remove it. Other empty .45 cases that have been sitting around loose in cardboard boxes for the same period of time are not carbonized at all or just slightly.
 
Some time back the indoor range required green ammunition so I stocked up pretty well with Winchester 9mm's, .40s, and .45 acp's (the kind with the small primers), but quit using it when no longer required. So today I pulled out a half box of the .45's that still contained the remainder of the factory fired brass. It was packed in styrofoam inserts and was some five years old. The fired cases had an extreme case of baked on carbon covering half the case that I don't recall were like that right after firing. Spinning a case against steel wool would not remove it but left a pleasant burnished appearance.



So I'm kind of wondering if the carbon deposit and appearance became excessive over time and perhaps aided by the styrofoam? There's no real objection against the carbonized appearance as far as reloading but I assume there is some cleaner that might remove it. Other empty .45 cases that have been sitting around loose in cardboard boxes for the same period of time are not carbonized at all or just slightly.



Have you tried tumbling the shells in media with a little brass cleaner? Brass cleaner for this purpose is sold commercially for reloaders. I have used it before on belted magnum cartridge shells and it works well.


THE GUNSLINGER
 
condor bravo
I'm surprised the wool didn't shine them up . I switched to wet tumbling , I've cleaned up some pretty scroungy looking brass for a friend , they came out like new after tumbling for 3 hours . Is it possible being stored in styro , could it be a discoloration not carbon ? If your not wet tumbling your brass , put some cases in a container with hot water & detergent , let them soak for awhile an see if it helps .

If it helps , if your not wet tumbling this may change your ways . I switched after 30 years
The brass comes out spotless , inside & out . Now I can't wait to dirty up some brass to clean.
Never liked the build up of carbon inside the case . I shoot mostly 308 , handgun cases are a breeze to clean , wide open straight walled , they look brand new each time. You seem to like real clean cases , give it a try .

Chris
 
What cw308 has said, case's come out just like factory.

If you de-prime before tumbling, primer pockets are clean to.

And brass is easier to resize as a side benefit.
 
condor bravo wrote:
The fired cases had an extreme case of baked on carbon covering half the case that I don't recall were like that right after firing. Spinning a case against steel wool would not remove it but left a pleasant burnished appearance.

Are you sure that's a carbon deposit?

Particularly since you don't recall the cases having a lot of carbon in them when you stored them?
 
It is a solid black rather than just a mild tarnish so don't know what else it could be. Spinning against steel wool makes it a shiny black, not offensive at all. Haven't tried tumbling since steel wool was not effective.
 
condor bravo
The brass I cleaned for my friend the necks looked like the carbon was embedded , I also tried a quick rub with 4-0 wool , just shined the carbon , for some reason the detergent made it look like new . try putting some dish washing detergent & warm water on a rag . I would think it should clean like a tumbler ..
 
So I'm kind of wondering if the carbon deposit and appearance became excessive over time and perhaps aided by the styrofoam?
Can anybody answer the OP's question? I'm sure condor brave knows how to tumble/clean his brass...
 
Any metallurgists around?

I'd be a little leery of using it if what is assumed to be carbon didn't polish off. Sounds like carbon or whatever may have leeched into the brass, or out of the brass, over the years. Not sure how that might affect the brass' strength, brittleness, etc. Maybe no problem at all, but....
 
Neither of the three techniques--steel wool, dishwashing detergent, and dry tumbling--have successfully removed the carbon so the most efficient way is back to dry tumbling for a couple hours per load. All methods will lighten some and polish but not remove satisfactorily. The burnished look where the black existed, now mostly brown, is good enough.

So since I started playing with this, it's off to load a bunch of the small primer pocket .45s.
 
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Styrofoam and brass may not be compatible when stored at high temperatures.

From a google MSDS search on the checmicals used to make it.

The heat may be the problem ?? my guess.

45 acp are low pressure.

The 9 and 40 much higher pressure maybe not safe??

If it cant be removed by normal means, i would guess the brass is damaged. Maybe weaker ???

Good luck, be safe.
 
I don't know if it's damaged or not, but I doubt that's carbon. That's most likely cupric oxide which is a black oxide of copper and is often used as a protective or decorative finish. It develops from chemical reaction with water or with alkaline chemicals.

The next question is, how deep does it go? I would take a pocket knife and do a little scraping to see how far down the brass is. Probably not too far. I've had it on corroded cases and they didn't lose more than a fraction of a thousandth when I took it off.

The way I removed it was with a citric acid solution in an ultrasonic cleaner. The photo below shows the black oxide surrounding green oxide on brass that was in a baggie that got flooded on a concrete floor. The water and concrete provided some alkalinity which promotes the black oxide formation. The nice thing about citric acid is it doesn't attack the underlying brass, but rather tends to passivate it. Citric acid treatment is a common method of treating brass before putting it into long-term storage, as it is then protected from coarse corrosion. You can leave it on a shelf indefinitely with no further treatment or polishing. A slight darkening of the yellow color is all that happens over time. However, after treatment you may see some pink where the oxide was. That's copper from which the zinc in the brass alloy has oxidized out when the stain was forming. That polishes right back to brass color and is the only reason I can think of for polishing afterward. Polishing removes the passivity and leaves the brass more vulnerable to corrosion (no more than any other polished brass) again. The citric acid treated surface is the best for long-term storage.

Since it is fall, you can probably get citric acid where canning supplies are sold. Ball brand has it. Walmart used to have it in fall. But if you start really liking citric acid cleaning, I buy it from this place postage paid. He sells all quantities you might reasonably be interested in, but it does cost a lot less per pound as the quantity gets larger. If you can interest friends in a group buy, you’ll save the most.

For wet tumbling and the like, a tablespoon of citric acid powder in a gallon of water is enough. However, for black oxide, use a solution that is 5% by weight. That's the old Frankford Arsenal brass cleaning formula from before the military started leaving the annealing stain and oxides on brass. They started that practice sometime in the 1920's, so the formula is probably from World War One or thereabouts, but it still works fine. Just put 7 ounces of citric acid in a gallon jug, fill it 2/3 of the way and cap it and shake it until the powder dissolves, then fill with water the rest of the way to make a gallon. With the citric acid I got from Duda, 7 ounces turns out to be about one measuring cup full. That’s close enough if you don’t want to weight it. Heating it to about 140°F speeds everything up considerably, but is not required if you have time to wait for it to work.

On the leftmost case, below, you can make out some pretty dark black to the left of the outer verde gris ring at the bottom and on the inside of the ring around the center green area. On the other cases it just seems to be mixed in with the verde gris. The verde gris vanished in about 15 seconds in the hot solution, and the black took longer, but I don't recall timing it. Carbon and primer pockets took longest to clean. The oxide was long gone by the time it was done with primer pockets.

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mikld wrote:
Can anybody answer the OP's question?

Not until we know what the deposit actually is.

It would be a simple matter to tell condor bravo to just just cut one of his cases lengthwise, soak one of the halves in vinegar for 72 hours, take a high resolution photograph of both the inside and outside of the case and then we would have a basis for more deterministic inquiry, but I (and I'm sure most of the others who have responded) are starting from condor bravo's stated belief that the black areas are carbon deposits and trying to eliminate the obvious - and easy - resolutions.
 
Unclenick wrote:
I don't know if it's damaged or not, but I doubt that's carbon.

No, definitely not carbon.

And, as you note, provided it is not deep enough to compromise the integrity of the case can be readily removed in a suitable reducing environment. Acetic acid, Citric acid, Oxalic acid, Ammonia, will all work for this purpose.
 
"...aided by the Styrofoam..." Nope. Unless there's some leaching of chemicals. There are several chemicals found in household liquids, like ammonia, that will blacken brass. So will cold bluing. Highly unlikely in this case though. Brass will naturally blacken with age though.
Nick's before picture is the copper coming out of the alloy. Brass being an alloy of copper and zinc.
 
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