Attorneys Attack Gun Industry

rod

New member
<strong><font size=3>Attorneys Target Gun Industry</font></strong>



<strong><A href = "#Do"> What you can do!</A></strong>


As greedy attorney's lick their chops over the prospect of a new round of litigation against gun manufacturers it is becoming more and more apparent that the system that rewards attorneys and plaintiffs for finding ways to suck money out of corporate America is badly flawed. The recent successes in tobacco litigation have convinced a number of legal experts that what is required to realize success and thus profit in this type of litigation is simple perseverance. What is not often mentioned is that tobacco suits were ineffective for many years. What broke the logjam for litigants was the discovery of information that Tobacco companies had deliberately tried to manipulate the addictive properties of their product in order to increase sales. This information was in the form of hard documentary evidence, reports and memoranda from the companies themselves. While tort lawyers have bandied about many allegations about the motives of the gun industry, there's not a shred of hard evidence to support any of them. They seem to be proceeding on the assumption that this information must be there to find.




Gun dealers and manufacturers sell to those who want to buy guns and they comply with federal and state laws in checking out who the buyers are. This most fundamental of market practices is being portrayed as a sinister conspiracy to support criminals in their activities but would this fanciful theory stand up if it were applied to any other products that criminals may use? Should an automobile manufacturer be held liable for helping a criminal escape? Should a garment manufacturer be held liable for allowing the criminal to conceal a weapon? These examples illustrate the absurdity of this argument when applied non-selectively as all good law must be.




Any increased scrutiny of gun buyers needs to be addressed by legislation not litigation. The reason there has not been stricter legislation is because a large number of Americans do not want it. To attempt to alter this situation by creating revisionist legal theories about liability at the judicial level in order to make an end run around the democratic process is an example of unilateral judicial activism unaccountable to the wishes of the people of this nation. That is unacceptable in this democracy.




The judiciary has become a branch of government out of control, driven by an ideological zealotry that is at odds with the values of most Americans and by the pursuit of money. This coming June the American Bar Association will be sponsoring a seminar in Washington DC designed to bring together attorneys who are considering bringing lawsuits against gun manufacturers, dealers <strong>and owners</strong>. The fact that the American Bar Association would engage in organized advocacy aimed at promoting suits against a particular industry, suits for which, by their own admission, a legal basis does not yet exist reveals an unabashed prejudice and contempt for the principle of objectivity that is supposed to guide good jurisprudence. The whole affair seems uncomfortably similar to "practice building" seminars held by professional organizations to increase their member's profits.



The American public is not nearly so enthusiastic about these legal events as the breathless media coverage might suggest. They rightly have concerns about the power of a judicial system that seems to be bullying its way into areas that it has long been restrained from entering using arguments and logic that seem to be long on strident demands and blatant emotional appeal, short on veracity and nearly devoid of facts.



Temple University Professor David Kairys who formulated the "legal theory" that is the basis for Chicago's legal action against gun manufacturers offered the following opinion about gun sales:
"They make their product easily available for crime. Then the fear that that generates makes it easier for them to turn around to the rest of us and say, 'By the way, you need a handgun to protect yourself from these handguns that get used in crime.' The whole market is driven by crime. One can think of it as an epidemic spread by fear--and this epidemic is very profitable to the industry. Every time there is a mass murder or a serial killer or a crime spree on the local news, that's good for gun sales."



The irony of this statement coming from a legal scholar is startling. Most Americans feel that the impetus for hiring an attorney is driven by just the mechanism Kairys describes. Everyone is looking to sue; every attorney is looking for suits to bring, so you must hire an attorney in order to "protect yourself". This is a fear driven cycle that greatly benefits attorneys and no one else.



Those of us who have fought long and hard for our right to keep and bear arms need to turn our attention to Tort Reform. This needs to become an important agenda in the next election cycle. And taking a page from our antagonist's book we need to persevere. It may not happen in time to affect the cases that have been brought so far, but our political power is proven and if we put our minds to it we can bring those in the judiciary who are abusing their considerable powers in this society to heel.



=rod=



<a name="Do"> <strong><font size=3> What You Can Do:</strong></font>
Visit the <strong><A href="http://www.atra.org"> American Tort Reform Association </A></strong> site and let them know that you're a gun owner and interested in Tort Reform in response to the organized campaign against gun manufacturers. Also the <strong><A href="http://www.saf.org"> Second Amendment Foundation </A></strong> is filing a suit against the municipalities who are suing the gun industry. Visit their site to find out more and consider supporting them. </A>
 
Rod,

Thanks for your contribution. I especially like the details of the basis for the suit. I'll be sure to use that one. It is amazing how easy the antis' arguments are to destroy when you actually see them spelled out.

Keep the good info coming!

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-Essayons
 
The end IS near!?

We are just one judge, one jury, one decision away from disaster?

Note a former S&W executive is ready to say they knew the criminal market was being supplied by seepage from the legitimate market, and did not care!

Get em while you can...

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Look what they did to the Tobaco industry...
Ouch.

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
kodiac@hotbot.com
 
Now is <strong>not</strong> the time to panic regarding these suits. It is very much at the judge's descretion whether a case is to be heard, and having your case make it to court is long way from winning.

Hass (the guy who is suppposedly set to testify against Smith And Wesson) seems to be saying that some guns used in crimes are legally purchased (not stolen) and Smith And Wesson knows that. Well so does everyone else who has half a brain. Some cars used to deliberately kill are purchased from a dealer directly and some baseball bats etc. So far that is not enough to determine the manufacturer liable. It is also not clear what Hess brings other than his opinion.

These folks are out to make every move they make appear to be a "major breakthrough" because they'd like to psych the gun manufacturers (and their constituency) into settling or panicking.

When the millions of gun owners in this country find out that guns can't be produced anymore because the liability costs are too high, and find out that they have to buy expensive insurance just to keep a gun ... there's going to be a "breakthrough" alright. This will be the straw that broke the camel's back in tort law. If we get mad enough and work together we can "revolutionize" tort law through legislation. We'll legislatively emasculate every tort attorney in this nation.

=rod=
 
What about a two pronged attack? Can we begin to use the ponderous Juggernaut the enemies of freedom have created against them? What I mean is this: This sounds like a conspiracy to violate my civil rights as well as every firearm owners. The conspiracy laws that have been so broadly written in the past two decades...could a suit be brought under these laws against the cities, gun control organizations, AND their lawyers? If so, what about turning it into a class action suit with a class of 80 million gunowners. What about RICO? If it can be used against anti-abortion protesters surely it could be used against the gungrabbers. Is there one federal prosecutor on our side. If so, he or she could make a big difference. Let's get creative.
 
Like the IRA told the Brits...

They only have to get lucky (and win a case) once, we have to get lucky every time.

The gun industry has much less money to fight with than Big Tobacco did. The important point in the suits by Chicago, New Orleans, or any states that follow is they will be funded with a never ending supply of your tax money.

Sooner or later they will win a big case, and the RTKBA is toast. Manufacturers will simply stop selling to any but pol/mil to avoid liability.

May take a while, but it will happen.



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Spartacus: The Second Amendment Foundation suit is based in part on a "conspiracy to deny rights". I think they are worth supporting in this endeavor.

Broken Arrow: That's certainly one possible outcome. But c'mon if we're really gonna think that way why bother with any of this? Why bother yapping about it on the internet when it's all a lost cause? I think there is something we can do about it. This is <strong>not</strong> the same as the tobbaco suits, we have a powerful motivated constituency who is going to go oppose this attempt to short circuit democracy with a lawsuit. Tobbacco companies had money we have political power. Like Spartacus says we need to get creative.
 
The bottom line is (to paraphrase an Aesop fable) "who bells the cat?" The courts may rule against the gun manufacturers. Fine. I'll find a gunsmith (or master machinist) to teach me his trade and make my own from scratch. The courts can rule against the ammunition manufacturers. Fine. I'll buy a lathe and turn cases... In reference to my first statement, I'm one of the cats...I've got at least 80 million other cats out there. At least a million are more serious shooters than I. Are we all going to roll over no matter what?

The Congress does not have the legitimate power to take my firearms away from me. The Supreme Court does not have the legitimate power to take my firearms away from me. The Executive Branch does not have the legitimate power to take my firearms away from me. These three branches do possess the RAW power to try. You see, my right to possess firearms derives not from the Bill of Rights but from my inalienable rights to life and liberty. As the firearm is unarguably the best tool ever devised to protect an individual's life and liberty from those who wish to deprive the individual of life and liberty, therefore the right to firearm possession is a logical adjunct to the rights of life and liberty. Anyone denying this is inescapably an enemy to the individual's right to life and liberty.
 
The discrepency between the *actual* use of Raw Power by a government and the governed's perception of what is a *legitimate* use of that power is the basis for nearly every revolution. The government has the raw power to do lots of things, it is held in check by its willingness to abide by those legal tenets that define the limits of its power. In the US we have added several practical methods to help ensure that these tenets are abided by: elections, separation of powers, and the sharing of the power of the means of force with the governed (via the Second Amendment). Interestingly the Judiciary is the least affected by these practical checks, it is seen as the conscience of our democracy, willing to put strict adherance to the letter and spirit of the law above predjudice and crass political gain. One of the sorriest chapters in our recent history has been the emergence of the judiciary as an advocacy organization, determined to use its unique position in this democracy to promote social engineering that could only painstakingly be achieved by democratic means if at all. This means organizations like those promoting gun control and tobacco control who are frustrated by their ineffectiveness in the legislative arena turn to the courts to get what they want quickly.

You might argue that in the case of Tobacco that this is a "good thing", but the means used creates a precendent that IMO is far more damaging to this society than the costs of tobacco related illness. The means is far more damaging than the ends ever could have been.
 
Excellent points guys, even if the antis eventually win in the future, we will have fought the good fight and severely bloodied their noses in it. And perhaps in the process, call national attention to what is really at stake here.(Freedom and Liberty) As the saying goes, You can't fight city hall but, you can sure sh@#$ on their doorstep!

Fight the Good fight!
 
Well, I just read on Fox News that Atlanta has joined the suing fray. They are planning to sue unspecified people for unspecified amounts. Typical BS. If this trend continues I can see most of the manufacturers closing up shop and dealing with gov. contracts only. As usual we get the short end of the stick. The only bright side to this is that we can all be really rich if this thing goes through. We would now have 2 precedents that we can use to sue anyone and everyone whose product we have used to break the law or whose product we have abused. I can hardly wait to sue all the car manufacturers first for making cars that can go faster than the speed limit, can run red lights, can be operated while intoxicated... Then I am going to sue all the alcohol manufacturers because they make a product that can cause me to go nuts. Then I will sue all computer manufacturers because they have made pornography so available that my soul has been lost to SATAN. Then I am going to sue Taco Bell because their tacos give me the runs. I wonder if we could sue our employers for demanding we work 8 hours a day and not allowing us to properly raise our children???

WHEN WILL THIS LUNACY END???????????????
 
A good friend once told me, "When you're <u>20</u> and your gut tells you to do something, you probably should not do it. When you're <u>40</u> and your gut tells you to do something, you probably should do it."

I'm over 40, and right now my gut is telling me to buy the weapons and ammo I believe I could need. Hopefully this legal mess will sort out OK for the manufacturers (and the American citizen), but the precedents of civil aviation, tobacco and other industries don't give me much hope. Guns get a great deal of bad PR, and the political winds are not currently in our favor.
 
Jeff: That's certainly a fair asessment and I wouldn't in any way discourage you from taking the actions you name ... but gun owners have a penchant for thinking the solution is to buy a bunch of ammo and a couple of guns and squirrel them away for when the hammer falls. If we allow that to happen you're going to be risking arrest and imprisonment and if you ever need your guns it may well be in a situation where you haven't used/practiced with them for years.

So my opinion is to let follow your gut when it tells you to fight these people. The political/legal realm is messy, frustrating, lacking in absolutes and full of comprimises, all of these things in my experience that have no appeal at all to most gun owners. But make no mistake, like it or not, it is in this realm that our fortunes lie. We can complain, get angry, hide guns and whatever but in the long run if we don't act in the political realm our cause is lost.

=rod=
 
Rod - I did not mean to imply that the 'squirreling away' was my only action. That needn't be mutually exclusive with political action, discussion and support.

Your comment re: 'risking arrest and imprisonment' was interesting. Please educate me if I am wrong, for I intend to break no law. I am buying over-the-counter, non-NFA weapons and ammunition. Not truckloads, but enough so that my sons and I have a handgun, rifle and shotgun for future use. Between 250 and 1,000 rounds of ammo per weapon, and we are practicing and taking classes so that we develop the requisite proficiency and safety knowledge. I am doing my best to simply incorporate this into our family hobbies - target shooting / plinking has become another activity / education for me and the boys. We're not buying helmets and terrorizing the National Forest.

If any of this sounds illegal I'd prefer to find out via TFL. Arizona, as a state, is pretty free regarding firearms ownership, and I don't believe there are any state laws more restrictive than federal. I'm not being cute - I mean this question seriously. Thanks.

BTW, check the new thread in this forum, 'Turning the tables on HCI ' for an interesting proposal.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited 01-10-99).]
 
Jeff: You're right, what you describe is not illegal. I guess I reading a little into your post that wasn't there. I talk to so many gun owners that are going to hide weapons and keep them after the "great gun ban". If that is their intent and if such a ban becomes a reality (all the more likely since these folks for the most part are unwilling to participate in any political action) then they will at that point be risking imprisonment etc.

Sorry if I got a little too excited but if all of us gun owners stopped a little of the pessimism and rolled up our sleeves we could kick butt and take names with no problem (how many times have we heard that lament). Glad to hear you're ready to fight.

=rod=
 
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