ATTN LEO's..... an open letter to TFL

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Wheelgunner6

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I am requesting that all brother and sister LEO's write to TFL and request the following members be banned for makeing threats against officers, while in LOD , both actual and Implied.

#1,AUTiger73,6 Oct. 1612hrs. Whom started the imflamatory thread, he titled "Murder by Cops again", and in his opening post stated, "The following story is yet another example of the power of the police state weve allowed to exist in this country. "Yet another reason to have a loaded assualt rifle near you bed and you better load it with AP ammo".

#2, ruger45 , 6 Oct 1807 hrs, "Unarmed gunmen storming into my home WITHOUT Identifying themselves....The terrible mistake is that he didnt kill either of the bastards"ie -LEO's-, "
This could potentially cause the next few Bold 'peace officers to verify their info before entering and remember to shout 'Police'. AND "Better get your exterior motion sensor alarm system set up so you will have time to "lock-n-load".

#3, Jeff Thomas, 7 Oct 0149 hrs , "There are two things that will reverse the tide...one is lawsuites, and the other is dead and injured LAO's. Damn shame."

#4, Mike H 8 Oct 1357 hrs , While referring to the tragic incident in question. "The moral of the story here would appear to be that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. You homeowners need to look into takeing the 5.56 or 7.62 option, body armor is tricky stuff to get past."

These were the blatant calls for the useing of deadly force against LEO's in the Line of duty. I welcome any of you, or anyone else, to go back and read these threads to see what context they were used in.Read them all for that matter.

I also accuse this Administrator of allowing this bashing , these threats , and the insults toward our Law Enforcement community. How many friends have you had to bury due to this Job ? Ive had 5 friends killed LOD , been permantly disabled myself , and work for a Dept. thats had Hundreds of Officers killed LOD. Does this "anonymous" administrator expect me, and us , to just roll over and stay quite when we are insulted and threatened by some of these characters ?

Apparently TFL is not a forumn for LEO's , thats my take. Also I guess they are so enamored on the 2nd amendment they forgot there was a first one, which doesnt think much of the arbritary "THREAD CLOSED" button.

Im not going to participate in this forumn anymore , actually its the censorship that really gets me. I also dont believe these TFL folks are cops , ex-cops , retired cops, whatever. Theres no way actual LEO's would have let a concerted bash, and the threats, to go on like that.

We dont have to take this crap. Its bad enough the risk's we take, sacrifices we make , injury and death we inccure , and the suspension of personal rights we have to accept , all for this ungrateful society , to have to listen to bashing and threats from a tragic incident involving fellow LEO's where the loss of life occured.

I really dont expect TFL to actually ban these keyboard heros, "Gosh they didnt really mean it" right ? But I would appreciate a show of solidarity.

I wish you , my fellow LEO's, the very best in your lives and career's.

And stay safe..........Rick
 
??? "Apparently TFL is not a forumn for LEO's , thats my take. Also I guess they are so enamored on the 2nd amendment they forgot there was a first one, which doesnt think much of the arbritary "THREAD CLOSED" button." ???
 
Ive had 5 friends killed LOD ,
been permantly disabled myself , and work for a Dept. thats had Hundreds of Officers killed LOD. Does this
"anonymous" administrator expect me, and us , to just roll over and stay quite when we are insulted and
threatened by some of these characters ?

Trying to fiqure out where you work.There where 80 LEO's killed last yr in the line of duty and allmost half in auto accidents.That means your department has acounted for all of the LEO's who died in the line of duty for about the past 5 yrs.This sounds a little off to me.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Wheelgunner6...of course you are entitled to your opinions.....as are all other folks who post here. I think the administrators do a fine job.I would hope you will still engage in any useful dialog...especially since you say you are a LEO. It is nice to get the views of people who "protect and serve". I don't know if I am reading the tone of your message correctly.....but I think you may be scared. Scared of what is happening in this country today. The thought that innocent citizens would actually defend themselves when black clad people are kicking in their doors....screaming and shooting....must be abhorrent to you. I must confess...that I am scared. When I have to work a night shift....I worry that I may come home to a clerical error...and find my family slaughtered. Can't happen? It does...more and more frequently. This last one in Lebanon Tn...is too close to home. Way too close. What am I supposed to think? What am I supposed to do? If my front door is breached at 3:00am.....what am I supposed to do? If I have commited no crime....should I defend myself? What if it is a real home invasion by criminals. Please tell me. Seems like I am damned if I do...or don't. There seems to be a Cowboy mentality that is creeping into the latest generation of LEO's. Shaved heads...black gloves.....arrogance. Checkpoints to search for alcohol....drug sniffing dogs etc. I am scared.You are scared. This is how it starts. It will only get worse. A few more High profile mistakes by LEO's...the mistrust will only increase. I fear for this country.I fear for myself and family. And I fear for you and yours...who protect and serve.
 
Wheel...

It seems to me the only question that has not been answered has been one directed at LEO's (of which I was once one).

The question is: What should honest, law-abiding citizens do when confronted with a scenerio that could either be a Dynamic Entry or Home Invasion?

It appears from your statements they/we are obliged to just lie quietly until they/we are either A: not killed (by police) or B: killed (by goblins in ninja garb yelling "freeze").

As for me, I will take these personal/LEO life saving precautions when I am out of the apartment scene:

1: My home will be IMMEDIATELY distinguishable from all others on the street. (modern version of lambs blood on the door posts... even a note on the door might help prevent mis-ID)

2: My home will be virtually un-DE/invadable without a tank because of appropriate entry reinforcement. (it's only money, and it's not that hard to do.)

3: My "Safe Room" will be even more unasailable than my exterior points of entry, cannot be found rapidly and will have wireless commo. (see #2)

HOWEVER, as I am currently in a (very small) apartment, I can and do only comply with #1 as well as adding internal non-lethal delaying tactics/devices to facilitate identification. No-one gets (in) though my door at 3am easily or rapidly.

In a perfect world - and not too long ago, none of these type of precautions would be necessary to protect LEO's... though they are still a good idea against goblins.

As has been stated before, the issue is not the TACTICS of Dynamic Entry, but the PURPOSE for any particular DE. The question that MUST be asked by personnel considering a DE is, "is the potential for a simple bust worth ANY potential innocent or LEO loss of life?" Since the majority of DE's these days are for simple drug warrants, not violence charges, IMHO that answer is usually NO.

Dynamic Entries are inherently unsafe for everyone... the resident, the neighbors and the LEO's.

I ask again - IS A SIMPLE BUST WORTH THE LIFE OF >>ANY<< INNOCENT >>OR<< LEO???

If your answer is yes, then the problem is truly with you and not the concept of appropriate, tactical (violence suppression) dynamic entry.


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_______________________

HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
****
Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
_______________________


[This message has been edited by MrMisanthrope (edited October 09, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MrMisanthrope (edited October 09, 2000).]
 
Wheelgunner,
As a person who has several immediate family members who are LEO's (one is a sheriff and the other a SWAT in chicago) I can appreciate what you said about comments that are thrown about that seem to be advocating the killing of LEO's.
As a private citizen, however, I can appreciate the total frustration that those men wrote out of when advocating a "shoot first-ask later" policy to ANY home invaders. The problem is two fold. First, no-knock warrants, while increasing the immediate safety of 'first-in' officers also goes against the foundational attitude that 99.9% of americans have towards their privacy and the ideal that their home is their castle. Second, now that many criminals have learned how to break down a door and yell "police" and on top of that can buy uniforms and tac-vests from the same suppliers as the real police...many feel it is in their families best interest to defend first because of the uncertainty of who is actually coming thru the door.
Plus, let me add this, as a person who carries a gun daily and spent several years slinging for the govt (non mil but armed) both overseas and domestic and who has taken more than one slug in it's service, I feel it is important for the govt (local and federal) first and foremost to do all they can to gain the goodwill of the people they SERVE not DOMINATE. Yes, it's not fair to have to be an LEO and be on the defensive, however it is also not fair to be afraid of those men who are sworn to SERVE and PROTECT yet place their own safety (no-knocks for example) above the safety of those who they SERVE.
Plus, when you go back to those posts that you refer to about killing LEO's you will find I think that all of them deal with the issue of police going in on a no-knock and shooting the wrong person. Or as in the example of the 12 yr old shot in california last month, a incident that while the invasion had true merit criminally, also brought about a tragedy. No shotgun just goes off into the back of a 12 yr old by accident. When those TFL'ers responded in anger on that subject, they didn't respond in the attitude that the only good cop is a dead cop, but the attitude of disgust for such sloppy, unprofessional handling of a weapon that led to a innocent death and to the disgust with which the double standard of blame will be applied to that officer.
As both a family member of LEO's and a previous slinger for the "man" :-) I can personally tell you of incidents reported to me and incidents I was involved in (and I'm sure you know of some incidents as well since your LEO) where there were shoots that had they been committed by a normal citzen would have been prosecuted in vigor whereas because the shooter was LEO or govt, the shoot was declared as good and swept under the adminstrative and justicial rug. That is where the frustration of these men come from, not of evil intent but in protection of both their rights and the knowledge that there those who wish to take away those rights either by intent or accident.

I'm sure that you can understand this when you think about it. If someone in a black tac vest bought from Eagle came in with a gun and started yelling, your first "fight or flight" instinct as a gun owner would probably be to defend yourself and family. In those first 5 seconds or so, you probably wouldn't know if they were really police or not...I wouldn't.
 
I am suggesting that :mad:WHEELGUNNER :mad: be banned from TFL. One of the main reasons for us to use the TFL is to excersize FREEDOM OF SPEECH/FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION!!! If :mad:WHEELGUNNER :mad: don't like it, he can leave, and never come back, like he threatened to. Why would we want him on thefireline anyway if he is evidently for the pro-tyranny movement. You Obviuosly think that it is OK for cops to do MURDER. But it is not. When you enter my house, some rules to go by:
Knock, many times, and identify yourself BEFORE busting down the door. If you cross the thresh hold before I hear "police" I'm going to be thinking about MY FAMILY, and NOT YOURS!! IF you take these as threats, they are not. I am not making an attack on you, for I know it is a hard job, and a VERY HONEST proffesion, because we need cops. But we do not need trigger happy dictators who think they can bust down anydoor and shoot any kid or old man they see. Why should somebody be banned for wanting motion lights outside their house so they can have forwarning of invaders? Why? So you can sneak up on them real close to slaughter their family, and then say "uh, oops, wrong house." NO!!! Your Hitler hailin', red China, friend of Stalin, attitude is not welcome in America, or On TFL. So kindly excuse yourself, And Good day.
 
I am not an LEO. However I can understand the diffuculties involved with your offtimes dangerous job. However, I also understand that you and all the rest of your belegured brethern have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution of these United States. That includes the First Amendment right to freedom of the press. At the core of this amendment is the right to criticize the Government, and all it's members, which the courts have ruled, includes the Thin Blue Line. While I do not condone the assulting of Peace Officers, talking, and writing about it IS protected speech. You must, by your oath uphold this IMHO!!! You don't have to like it though. ;)

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Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent

"Glock 26: 17 rounds of concealed carry DEATH comming your way from out of nowhere!!! THAT'S FIREPOWER, BABY!!!"

Taurus 605: Five hits of .357 MAG that will just ruin your day, Scumbag!!!!
 
Wheelgunner, I am one of your "brother" officers. I am a retired police officer and several members have been to my home, met me and read my creditials which I have proudly displayed on the wall of my living room. What most have not known here to fore is the fact that I am medically retired. One of the most valued lessons I learned during my tenure was the importance of the necessity of the support of the community I served. No, I did not strive to be popular....only to be respected, which I was successful at.
With the realization that you are new here I respectfully suggest that you acknowlegde the support that you may come to appreciate from this group.
Ed Brunner and I do not always agree. But I would bet my last dollar that in a time of need Ed would be there for me and knows that I would be there for him. Mike (Irwin) and I fuss.....but I could not ask for a better friend than I have in him. FUD...well what can be said of FUD. He comes up with some strange stuff but we all value him, his in put and his inate ability to make us think. C.R. Sam is always good for his broad knowledge and whimsical quotes. LadyDeeJ (Jessica) will be for ever teased about milking her gun (a habit I'm sure she has broken) but Sensop (the forum clown and much beloved) and I will never let her forget. We are not "clanish", we share no clique. But damn it we do hold one thing dear here. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Certainly there are and always will be points that we do not completely agree on. But that one thing...the RKBA will always bind us together. If you share that love please stay with us and do not judge based on one thread about a topic that may not have been appropriate to begin with. This is not the time to create division in our ranks.
Some day when things get intense you may look over your shoulder to discover one of these people backing your "play". If it is Jessica a mere thank you will do and please don't say "Mooooo".

In the absence of a staff member please let this thread end.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Hmmm, so I guess a month of being a registered member, as well as a differance of opinion means all of TFL has the same views huh?

Wheels,
FWIW, you may not be aware that threads are closed most of the time because they hit a 100K size limit, and are off the central topic of being guns or rights related. Since I've been on TFL, I can count the number of closed threads BASED ON CONTENT on one hand. TFL is a public forum that is privately owned, meaning it's the owners decision, not the first as to what is relavant and what isn't.(sort answer--> The 1st doesn't apply in here any more than it does in your living room. I'm not a baser or a wannabe, but if push comes to shove, I'll respect the wishes of those LEO's here, and generally admit they have a thankless job. I for one would hate to lose any member of TFL, especailly one like yourself, that holds near and dear the wheelgun ;), there's dam$ few of US left for that fella.
One thread that recieved a surprising lack of interest in the last couple of weeks concerned a guy in Seattle, minding his own business, that was "painted" in his living room. The end of that story was a happy one for the average LEO, but tragic for the non-LEO. Nobody got shot, but the guy lost his guns as a "precautionary measure". That scares the bejeebers out of me more than the though of a no-knock at 3AM. Now you mention, and it's the 2nd time I've heard it,and only here at TFL, BTW, that LEO's are subject to a considerable loss of personal freedoms. I for one am interested in hearing more about that concept. Yeah, people are more than a little frustrated, but don't give into a fit of passion and run away. You have a chance to make a difference, so don't pass on it OK?
FWIW, there ain't no guarantee it's going to be smooth sailing.
 
Wheelgunner6: Maybe I'm wrong, but I am willing to bet that you take measures to avoid being injured in an accident. Most reasonable people do, yet we have a number of people killed and injured each year as a result of "No-Knock" raids gone bad.

What you appear to be reacting to is the idea that there are citizens who are willing to defend themselves against armed and masked intruders who do not identify themselves as police.

In so many of the scenarios of the raid gone bad the innocent people killed were not even resisting.
I think that if you are willing to look at the situation from at least both sides, you might get an idea of what some TFL members are reacting to.

And there is one other aspect to consider. Many LEO's have too little training and too little experience in shooting to function reliabily in a high-adrenalin situation.
Doesn't it make sense to limit no-knock raids or at the very least restrict them to the correct addresses?

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
Wheel, you're outa line, pal. You've put your own spin on my quote, but I really don't give a rat's a$$ anymore ... think what you want buddy.

Besides, methinks you protest too much, my friend. The LEO lists on the 'net are also talking about this case, and you know what? .... you're even in the minority among LEO's. Your brother / sister LEO's also think this case stinks, such errors are intolerable, and I'm even seeing LEO's indicating that they would have fired on the LEO's invading their home. They're even noting that BG's are now buying police gear to do a more convincing job when they stage a home invasion.

You're not helping your profession, Wheel. Hopefully some other LEO's will help you see the light, because it's clear that you're not interested in logical conversation with all of us 'meddlesome twits'.

I'm done on this subject. But you have convinced me of one thing ... some of you guys really are to be feared and defended against.

Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited October 09, 2000).]
 
OK... I'll put my two cents in... the big problem that I see here is fear. Fear of the LEO going into a home not knowing what to expect. Fear of the home owner being woke at 2:00 in the morning by masked invaders. How do we resolve this problem? If we let things stand, with both sides fearing each other, shootouts will happen more often. That is one of the value's of TFL. It gives us non LEO's a chance to sit down and in a calm manner discuss the issue with those who are on the line. Fear can be releaved by facts.

I can see the problem from both sides. LEO's out of fear do not want the criminal to be able to get the jump on them. When you go to a house to arrest a known violent criminal you don't want them to be prepared. I know I wouldn't. But on the other hand, home owners, have no way of knowing who is kicking in that door. If I'm a law abiding citizen (and I am), if someone kicks in my door at 2:00 a.m. what am I to think? My personal safety and that of my loved ones is my first concern. I have no choice but to assume that those who are entering my house are criminals. Afterall I have done nothing wrong.

So what is the solution to the problem? I don't know, but that is why it is important that the Gun owners and LEO's have a place where they can discuss issues like this. It is far better to talk about it in the hopes that some of the fear can be eliminated. That is why your imput here is important.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
Why wasn’t this thread closed?

All,

Wheelgunner notes: “I also accuse this Administrator of allowing this
bashing , these threats , and the insults toward our Law Enforcement
community. ... Does this ‘anonymous’ administrator expect me, and us , to
just roll over and stay quite(sic) when we are insulted and threatened by
some of these characters ?”

- I stand accused of allowing this bashing. Yep, ‘tis true. I had the naive
hope that if y’all “vented” and “got your say”, perhaps rampant self-serving
emotions might succumb to logic and fair play. It usually works. Most
Members show at least a modicum of restraint and answer factually rather
than emotionally. Many Members, upon re-reading their posts, have
apologized for their initial, emotional expression of a valid point and re-stated
their viewpoint in calmer terms. I had hoped for that here. Again, my
mistake.

- Also, cutting off a thread for childish, illogical quarrelling usually results in
subsequent accusations of restricting speech, etc. At least that is an
“accusation” I need not worry about in this case. ;)

- Am I “anonymous”? My name IS Dennis! My name is on the forum list.
My name and e-mail have been on my every post since November, 1998.

- As for insulting anyone, only the listener can decide whether or not to be
insulted. If I am called an elephant, I do not suddenly grow a trunk.
Therefore it follows that not every accusation is accurate nor should I be
overly concerned with others’ opinions. In every conversation there should
be at least one adult who responds to emotional, inaccurate, exaggerated, or
intentionally mis-interpreted shrieks with calm logic and reserved rhetoric.
(I’ll “vent” privately! :D )

- Again, I agree I should have closed this thread earlier. I plead guilty of the
charge of permitting venting to become mere abuse - but that can be
stopped.


If anyone wishes to continue this topic, do it by e-mail, take it to a more
appropriate bulletin board, continue by one of the chat services, or claw each
others’ eyes out face-to-face.

To those who responded quietly and factually, my eternal thanks. As for the rest of you folks, be nice to each other on other threads or I will make up for the lack of self-discipline and censorship shown in this thread.

So y’all play nice now, y’hear!

This thread is now definitely closed.


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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Bemerb:
According to the officer down page(www.odmp.org), the number last year was 141. We're already up around about 114 so far this year, so your numbers are off.
As for the rest of you : I realize that home invasions may be more prevalent in some parts of the country, but you also have to remember that hot invasions are statistically lower in this country than many of the disarmed countries, simply because so many of us ARE armed. How many of you have that many home invasions in your area that you are sincerely worried about that particular problem? It's a non-existing problem in my area, whether dressed to immitate officers or not. I only know of one in my career.
While you may banter about killing officers and run behind the First Amendment when brought to task for it, I think its despicable personally. People like SPECIFICALLY Bad Medicine need to cool their jets, in my opinion. You are TOO QUICK to label us criminals for doing our jobs, and I think you are a border-line cop hater just from reading your single post in this thread.
Here's another point for the rest of you. Those of you who live in rural areas, go out to your mailbox. Does it have 3M scotchlite numbers at least 3 inches high on both sides of the box (not just the side the mailman comes up from)? Is your name on the front of the box or on both sides along with the numbers? If it has handpainted numbers, or those gold metal sticky numbers with the black lettering, you are wrong. If the numbers are under 3 inches, you are wrong. If you get your mail at a box and still don't have a 4 x 4 post by the road with numbers, you are wrong! If you rely on the neighbors telling visiting friends to find you by "turning at the big oak tree and go to the 3rd house past Mrs Owens' house", you are wrong. For those of you in urban environments, are your apartments or duplexes CLEARLY marked? And I mean CLEARLY, not just an adhesive label half stuck to the door with an old tenants name, and half an apartment number on the door? If so, repeat after me: "YOU ARE WRONG". My point in all this is that you all have been highly critical of the target residence identification, and while this particular home is a problem due to being only 1 of 2 on the road, I have been on so many calls where I waste 5 , 10 minutes not GETTING to the scene, but figuring out WHICH home in the area is where I am supposed to be. That sort of time factor in an emergency is critical.
Think of your cops; don't rely on them being old boys from the area who know who you are. You could live in a county like mine where there have been an in-flux of non-local officers who don't know the area or the inhabitants as readily as the older guys.
Thats all for now!
 
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