ATTITUDE CHECK

Snakebite

Inactive
ATTITUDE CHECK

"Some things are worth fighting for."
President William Jefferson Clinton
Address to the Air Force Academy
Colorado Springs, Colorado
June 2, 1999


Lately, gun owners can’t seem to buy a break. Every few months the public is treated to non-stop media coverage of yet another outrageous act committed by yet another crazed gun owner, followed by yet another chorus of demands for yet another round of gun-control laws that won’t work--hot on the heels of the last round of gun-control laws that didn’t work.

Forget the fact that wacko killers are not representative of gun owners as a whole. Facts aren’t important these days. Perception is. And thanks to the media, there is a growing perception in our country that gun owners are loose cannons on this Ship of State, that they represent both a danger to public safety and a slap in the face of civilized society. Civilian ownership of guns is an anachronism, a symbol of a bygone era, a vestige of the bloody shoot-em-up days of the Wild West. As if it needs to be said: Gun owners, we’re in a war. We’re losing.

Yes, like it or not, we’re in a war. A constitutional war. A war in which the stakes are at least as high as in any that has ever been fought by this nation. Is that the way you see it? Do you wake up mornings with a knot in your stomach because of your vanishing Second Amendment rights? Do gun grabbers make you rivet-spitting mad? Do you feel a deep sense of outrage and betrayal at the thought of your government making you feel like a criminal for owning guns? I hope so. If not, might as well hang ’em up now, pardner, ’cause you ain’t gonna be needing ’em in the brave, new world to come. There’s no place for the "gun culture" in the Age of Aquarius.

As gun owners come under increasing attack from anti-Second Amendment forces, it is essential we understand what we’re fighting for and why we’re fighting for it. Only then can we effectively convey our sense of urgency to others who may not yet comprehend the political and social perils that await us if gun grabbers have their way. Ultimately, this war over gun rights will be won or lost in the hearts and minds of the American people. It’s a matter of truth versus propaganda, fact versus fiction. Admittedly, ours is an uphill fight, but this is one war we simply cannot afford to lose, because if we do, the next one (and there will be a next one) will not be fought with slogans and nasty words.

Time for an attitude check.

Your attitude regarding the Second Amendment and those who are seeking to undermine it is crucial to our success in this war. Have you taken your temperature and pulse lately? If you’re not running a fever, if your blood pressure isn’t raising the roof because of what’s going on, then something’s wrong. You’re either dead, ignorant, or incredibly self-possessed. I’m not saying we should all panic or resort to bloodshed. But I do think it’s time gun owners became very serious about a deadly serious situation. With this in mind, I’ve a few thoughts to share about the way I see things.


WHAT WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT

First, we should understand that the Second Amendment does not grant us the right to keep and bear arms. Rather, the Second Amendment is intended to safeguard a right that, in the minds of the Founding Fathers, predated the amendment itself. Our founders recognized the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and sought to secure this right for reasons made clear in their various writings. Perhaps the most important of these reasons was expressed by Alexander Hamilton, writing in the Federalist, No. 29: ". . . if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens." Liberals poke fun at the notion that a ragtag group of disgruntled gun owners could possibly defeat a government as powerful as ours. Don’t fall for it. Although there is good reason to believe a few million irate gun owners could accomplish quite a lot, that’s beside the point. The point is that the Second Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights at least in part to provide a check upon government infringement and tyranny. That’s a fact.

Second, we must recognize the Second Amendment refers to an individual, not merely a corporate, right. Our liberal opponents point to the wording of the Second Amendment to support their contention that the right to keep and bear arms applies to the militia rather than to individuals. (Would that they were as attentive to the precise wording of the rest of the Constitution!) Since the National Guard now fulfills the role of the militia (they argue), the Second Amendment no longer applies to private citizens. Nice try. Any objective analysis of the writings of our founders will reveal that they not only considered the right to keep and bear arms an individual right, but they also intended the militia to be comprised mainly of private citizens. Everyday folks like you and me. It is the responsibility of government to allow for a well-regulated militia; it is the right of the people to keep and bear arms. If the government neglects its responsiblities, are the people obliged to ignore their rights? I think not.

Third, we need to remember that the Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting or sporting "rights." The Constitution recognizes no such rights. If they exist, they do so at the state level. Hunting, skeet shooting, and other such sporting activities are simply outside the scope of the Second Amendment. So, when a gun-grabber assures you that he’s (or she’s) not out to take away your hunting rights, the proper response is, "Who told you the Second Amendment has anything to do with hunting?"

Fourth, consider that those who fought over 200 years ago to free this nation from British tyranny used, what were at that time, military-style weapons. Now imagine, if you can, an effective citizen’s militia that has been forbidden by its government to own military-style weapons. How convenient . . . for the government. The result of the current strategy of gun grabbers to ban so-called assault weapons will be to render the Second Amendment virtually meaningless. This in the sense that law-abiding citizens would be forbidden to possess firearms that are at least somewhat comparable to those belonging to members of the standing army, which, of course, is under the control of the federal government. Despite the fact that assault rifles have historically been used in only a small percentage of civilian crimes involving firearms, our government is leading the effort to rid society of these weapons. Now why do you suppose that is? Good question. Fear the government that fears your guns.

Fifth, when it comes to defending our Second Amendment rights, compromise equals defeat. The liberals’ strategy regarding gun issues is simple: just get gun owners to compromise. The bigger the compromise, the happier liberals are, but even a small compromise enables them to get their foot in the door. And once they’ve got the door propped open, it’s only a matter of time before they squirm their way inside, make themselves at home, and start issuing orders. In the world of politics, compromise breeds compromise. Of course, this isn’t always a bad thing. Compromise is often necessary in order to maintain a reasonably civil society. But there are certain issues--gun ownership, for example--on which we cannot afford to compromise. Not even once. Oh, how gun grabbers will denounce you for taking such a stand! They’ll criticize you, call you bad names, use bullying tactics, scream and rant and jump up and down--anything to intimidate you into compromising . . . just a little, just this once. And when you can’t take it any more, when you finally give in to the pressure and manipulation, they’ll smile, shake your hand, say thanks, and leave you to ponder what you’ve just done. Then they’ll be back, and the process will repeat itself year after year, decade after decade, until your Second Amendment rights are but a fond memory. Never compromise your liberties. Never!

And last, it is essential we realize that as goes the Second Amendment, so goes the Bill of Rights. Without the means to resist tyranny, the people are at the mercy of tyrants. It does not require a particularly keen mind to understand this. If ours is indeed a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, there is no reason for government to fear the people--or their guns. That so many in government today do fear our guns bodes ill for the future. That an increasing number of voters seem inclined to agree with them spells disaster. The political battle over the Second Amendment that currently rages in our national and state capitals will ultimately prove as consequential to the future of this republic as the Revolution did to its founding.


WHAT WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND ABOUT THOSE WHO OPPOSE OUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS

First, those who would overregulate or confiscate your guns are not your friends. Nor are they mere political or ideological opponents. They are the enemy. They may be sincere. They may believe with all their hearts that what they are doing is good and right and in the best interest of this country. They may even think that ridding society of guns is a moral imperative. They are still your enemies. They are as much your enemy as an armed intruder who enters your home intent on doing harm to you and yours. The only difference is that while in most places it’s still legal to shoot an armed intruder, it’s not legal to shoot gun grabbers. Pity. This may seem a rather harsh outlook on things, but the stakes are simply too high to look at things otherwise. Gun grabbers are your enemies. Treat them as such.

Second, don’t be fooled by the "reasonable gun control" ruse. To most liberals, any gun-control measure is reasonable. Let’s look at it from another angle. The President announces to a national television audience: "What this country needs is an honest dialogue about how many Jews we’re going to hunt down and kill this year. And since I’m a reasonable person, I’m willing to compromise on the precise number we kill, as long as we kill a reasonable number." Now how do you suppose the public would react if our President were to make such a "reasonable" proposal? Exactly. Why should your response to the various "reasonable" gun-control proposals be any different? Gun grabbers are not reasonable folks. They’re bleeding-heart reactionaries who would confiscate your guns in a heartbeat if it were possible. This makes them dangerous people. Treat them as such.

Third, those who do not respect your Second Amendment rights deserve no respect for their First Amendment rights--or any of their other "rights," for that matter. We must understand that without the Second Amendment, Americans essentially possess no rights--only privileges granted by a government that may restrict or suspend said privileges when circumstances warrant. The government can do this, of course, because there is no one to oppose it’s doing so. And there is no one to oppose it because only the government has guns. Thus, those who would take your guns would in essence take your liberty (or your life), since they would deprive you of the only means you have of defending your liberty (or your life) should it ever come to that. I ask you: Are such people deserving of your respect? Of course not. Don’t be polite to them; be rude to them. In fact, be downright nasty to them. Let them know in no uncertain terms that while they may eventually succeed in outlawing your guns, they will pay a very personal and dear price for subverting the Constitution (let them figure out if that’s a threat or not). If gun owners don’t soon begin considering every piece of gun-control legislation a direct attack upon their very lives, and every gun grabber a serious threat to their liberties, we will lose our Second Amendment rights. Count on it.

Fourth, do not imagine, for even a moment, that the leaders of the anti-Second Amendment movement are being honest about their intentions. "Oh, we’re not out to ban all guns," they say, "we just want to make society safer for our children" (children being the last refuge of scoundrels). "We don’t want to ban hunting weapons, we just want to ban assault weapons" (and "cheap" handguns, and "unsafe" handguns, and "high-capacity" handguns, and "high-powered" rifles, and . . .). Do not give these liars the benefit of the doubt, ever. They can, have, and will use every means at their disposal to manipulate the masses into believing that you, a law-abiding gun owner, are the bad guy simply because you’ve chosen to exercise your Second Amendment rights. Nor should you pay any heed to the pseudo-intellectual legal arguments offered by gun-grabbing lawyers and "constitutional scholars," who explain why the Second Amendment nowadays doesn’t apply to this, that, or the other. Actually, their arguments can be quite persuasive--if you’ve never taken the time to read the Constitution, or the writings of the Founders. How do you combat a lie? With the truth. Gun-grabbers are like cockroaches: shine the light of truth on them, and they’ll usually scurry for the corners.

And last, our Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is not up for a vote, folks. It’s non-negotiable. Period. The gun grabbers would have a government by the polls rather than the constitutional republic our founders intended. Gun grabbers prefer a government by the polls because they know that people are often willing to trade their liberties for a little more perceived security. As of this writing, there are tens of thousands of law-abiding California gun owners watching their gun rights being legislated out of existence in the name of public safety. Soon, gun owners in other states will join them. More states will follow, and so on, until the only places you’ll see a gun are on the belt of a law-enforcement officer, in the hands of a soldier, or in a museum display case. Time is short. Get angry. Organize, educate, agitate. Change your attitude, change the world.


"I'M FIGHTING MAD RIGHT NOW. SO WHEN DO I FIGHT?"

When you have no option but to fight. That time may come sooner for some than for others. However, while bad gun laws are being passed with increasing frequency, they are also being appealed. Since the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of legal disputes in this country, it only makes sense to await its verdict in a precedent-setting case relating specifically to the individual right to keep and bear arms. In recent years the Court has avoided such cases, but its days of skirting the issue may soon be over. I suggest we wait to hear what our esteemed Court has to say before we take matters into our own hands. If the Court upholds our Second Amendment rights, then we may see many gun-control laws overturned. If it doesn’t . . . time to lock and load. Of course, circumstances may not allow some of us to wait that long. Use your own judgment in the matter, but understand that once you’ve pulled the trigger, there’s no undoing what’s been done.


ATTITUDE-CHANGING PRINCIPLES

Principle one: There are two kinds of government: bad government and necessary government, and not much difference between them.

Principle two: Governments tend to increase in size and power. As they do, they tend to become intolerant of people who don’t like the idea of governments increasing in size and power.

Principle three: Nations do not drift into liberty, but they do drift into tyranny. Liberty must be jealously guarded; tyranny is the reward of those who fall asleep while on guard duty.

Principle four: When government is given free reign, things usually do not change for the better, especially after they’ve changed for the worse. And they WILL change for the worse.

Principle five: The best comedic one-liner ever uttered is, "I’m from the government; I’m here to help." When you’re feeling down, this line is always good for a laugh.

Principle six: It’s easier to keep hold of something than it is to get it back. Keep tight hold of your rights.

Principle seven: Liberty compromised is liberty lost.

Principle eight: If you always do what you always did, you’ll always get what you always got. Don’t like what you’re getting? Do something different for a change.

Principle nine: Guns don’t kill people; governments kill people, mostly.

Principle ten: "Some things are worth fighting for." And that’s a quote.


--Snakebite, September 1999

(This article may be freely copied and distributed for non-commercial purposes.)

SNAKEBITE’S DEN http://www.angelfire.com/ut/snakebite

------------------
Ouch, that hurts.
 
A finer (and longer ;)) first post I cannot recall. Snakebite, welcome to TFL!

------------------
"Taking a long view of history, we may say that
anyone who lays down his arms deserves whatever he gets."
--Jeff Cooper


[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited September 16, 1999).]
 
Welcome to TFL, Mr. Snakebite, I lift my glass of elixir in your honor. Enjoyed your post and liked your site, hope to meet you in DC (if ya can make it -)in a couple of weeks. M2



[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited September 16, 1999).]
 
Snakebite,

I agrees with you, but I'll play devils advocate here, cuz its fun, and you'd be hard press to find any dissenters here and an open dialouge in the issue will only make you agruments stronger for the future.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not
be infringed."
The federalist papers don't mean anything. People always claim the "oh it was wrtten the framers of the Constitution." but they don't mention, they were written as a propaganda peice to get the state of New York to ratify the Constituion. Just as you don't believe every thing in a commercial, you can't believe everything in the Federalist papers.

Today we have the National Guard as you yourself stated. They are the miltia today, and they are pretty well-regulated. The subject of the sentence is a well-regulated militia, not the people. Local militia groups are not well regulated in comparision to the National Guard.

Today, we don't need to hunt for food it is arcane and an unnecessary waste of natures beauty.

The revolution 200+ years ago was a fight so that Mr. Washington and his friends could trade with other people and be free from taxes. The weapon used, much like "asalt" weapons of today serve no purpose but the kill or maim people. just as drunk driving is and certain narcotics are illegal, because they only put human live in danger, asalt weapons should be illegal for those who should not be allowed to maim and kill.

To allow one more school kid to be killed because so kid went to his fathers bedroom and took his gun is defeat. that is unacceptable. Guns should be banned

The reason the 2nd ammendment is second is because the 1st ammendment is more important (I realize that this is no true, but i've heard it a lot, so I'm using it, the amendments hold equal importantance (at least the frist 10) they were kinda number abitarily)

part 2
Those who want more gun laws on the book are looking out for the safety of the children. How many school children must die before you gun people realize this?

Reasonable Gun control is possible. Look at California (thats pretty funny isn't it)

We will always have the 1st amendment. It is protected (hypocrites, they don't even realize what they are saying. We protect the 1st because we have the second)

But the leaders of the anti-gun groups don't want all guns banned just the ones they serve no sporting purpose. why do you need a weapon capable of firing 100 of rounds per minute? you can't hunt like that. you'll shoot the game into oblivion. the leaders of the movement just want to banned weapons that are unsafe. you only need a bolt action single shot rifle in this day and age.

America is a democracy, everything is up for vote. If the majority of the people want something, then it should happen
-------------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE: The opinions expressed about are not mine. I may have written it, but I did so to promote dicussion about what Snakebite has written. the comments in the () are my commentary on some of my comments,I wasn't planning on adding commentary, but then I started and then I got bored of is, thats is why it starts in the middle and then stops. I have rebut all the statements in the past as I believe many of you have also. Once again, NOT MY OPINION JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT

garrick

------------------
It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
 
Just a thought--is it possible, and if so is it desirable, to force the Supreme Court, Congress, or somebody to choose between the continuance of US vs. Miller as precedent and modern laws banning and regulating military-style weapons? Here's the catch-22 as I see it:

1. The decision in Miller was actually that the shotgun in question was not "suitable for military use."

2. Therefore, according to the main precedent, only the possession of guns "suitable for military use" is Constitutionally protected.

3. Modern bans on full-autos, "assault rifles," hi-cap magazines, etc. all specifically target guns which are "suitable for military use."

Therefore, if the decision in Miller is followed, most of the outright bans and much of the licensing now in effect are unconstitutional because the affected weapons are military style.

OTOH, if the decision in Miller is reversed or at least dropped as precedent to avoid this snare, the majority of precedent again rests with the 2nd Amendment (where it damn well belongs!)

Does this make sense? Are there fallacies and holes I'm missing in the above statements? If not, is there any way to bring this to a head and force a decision, and if so, would it help or harm our cause?


------------------
Don

"Hey you, let's fight!"
"Them's fightin' words!"
 
OK, I'll play ;o) Nothing personal, I'm just treating your arguments as if they were coming from a gun-grabbing socialist.

===========

chink: "The federalist papers don't mean anything. People always claim the "oh it was wrtten the framers of the Constitution." but they don't mention, they were written as a propaganda peice to get the state of New York to ratify the Constituion. Just as you don't believe every thing in a commercial, you can't believe everything in the Federalist papers.

--Well, there are many other quotes from other sources that essentially make the same argument regarding the importance of the people being armed. That's simply the quote I chose to use for the article.

chink: "Today we have the National Guard as you yourself stated. They are the miltia today, and they are pretty well-regulated. The subject of the sentence is a well-regulated militia, not the people. Local militia groups are not well regulated in comparision to the National Guard."

--First of all, the Federal Code itself admits to two different militias: the organized militia (NG), and the unorganized militia, of which every able-bodied male between the ages of 18 and 45 is a part. Second, the phrase "well-regulated" in the SA does not refer primarily to control, but rather to discipline and training.

chink: "Today, we don't need to hunt for food it is arcane and an unnecessary waste of natures beauty."

--Who's "we." And also, who told you the SA has anything to do with hunting?

chink: "Guns should be banned."

--Come and get them. I'll be waiting.

chink: "The reason the 2nd ammendment is second is because the 1st ammendment is more
important."

--And your documentation for this is...? Besides, your logic is a bit skewed. Even if the FA were "more important" than the SA, that doesn't mean the SA isn't important. Are you saying you wouldn't mind a few soldiers being quartered in your home from time to time, because the Third Amendment is not as important as the Second? Or you wouldn't mind having your person or home occasionally searched without a warrant, because the Fourth Amendment is not as important as the Third?

chink: "Those who want more gun laws on the book are looking out for the safety of the children. How many school children must die before you gun people realize this?"

--I give up. How many? To my way of thinking, people are not merely potential criminals walking around. A person is not a criminal until he commits a crime. I'm not a criminal, and I refuse to be treated like one. Note carefully the word "refuse." It means no. Not me, not in this country, not in my lifetime.

chink: "Reasonable Gun control is possible. Look at California"

--I looked. Then I moved.

chink: "why do you need a weapon capable of firing 100 of rounds per minute?"

--Because there are so many people like you, that's why.

chink: "America is a democracy, everything is up for vote. If the majority of the people want something, then it should happen"

--Like how the majority of Californians voted for Proposition 187, yet the liberals got the courts to overturn it? Like how polls show that most Americans are in favor of the death penalty for violent criminals, yet the liberals are against it? Like how most Americans are opposed to partial-birth abortion, yet the liberals are in favor of it? Just where, exactly, is this "democracy" of yours?
 
Just when I was feeling better.
This really is enough to makes one's hands turn to fists...

But enough about Clinton still being in the whitehouse...

What did you expect him to say? He wants to destroy the country. Before he can do that he has to undermine the possible resistance.
And WE are those that may resist him.

But then again - we have known that for some time now.

------------------
"There is no limit to stupidity. Space itself is said to be bounded by its own curvature, but stupidity continues beyond infinity."
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
I live in cali although I don't like the gun laws, I like everything else. My way of combatting anti-gun people it to take them to the range. I converted 2 girls on the same day 3 weeks ago.
Had trouble using logic on a girl last last night.
The best way to fight the anti-gun craze is to take people to the range and let them see for themselves that we are normal people. not pyscho ethnocentric racist, religious nuts waiting for a spark so that we can go on a rampage.
I was just offering a rebuttal, just mostly what I hear from the otherside a lot.
except the federalist papers arguement, i use that one sometime when people quote the federalist papers and i want to argue.



------------------
It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
 
chink, I applaud your attitude and efforts. Unfortunately, they're about ten years too late. While you and other gun owners may succeed in changing a few minds here and there, California gun banners have the momentum in their favor. Even if it were possible to reverse the trend, it would likely take at least a few years to do so. By then, you may not have any guns to protect. At least not legally. I believe the situation in California is well past the critical stage: y'all are getting a closeup, firsthand lesson on how the gun-confiscation process works. Better make plans right now for caching your guns and ammo. Sorry to sound so negative, but in California the battle is already lost, unless legal appeals are successful. And I wouldn't count on that. I'm not saying we should just give up, or start shooting. We need to work within the system as long as we can. But the future does not look bright.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>chink: "why do you need a weapon capable of firing 100 of rounds per minute?"

--Because there are so many people like you, that's why.[/quote]

:D

Here is an opportunity. I realize the response was tongue-in-cheek, and humorous. The danger lies when statements like this are taken at face value by opposing forces. Then, we lose any pretense at logic, and are instead called upon to defend our morality or sanity. We are fighting a war of words, gentlemen. Pray that we may win with words alone...but, we won't if we get too glib, too sarcastic, too ascerbic. Just because it's logical, doesn't mean they'll "get it". If we were dealing with logic alone, the fight would be short, and the victors clear.

Please consider.

John
 
I'm with Spectre. Your answer works well for gun owners, but only makes things worse for people who are already afraid of our guns. A better answer might be, "in case Harris and Klebold show up at my school." The one weakness in that argument being that these folks think that if they take your gun away, the BG's won't be able to get any guns either.

How about, "I don't like reloading when I'm at the range."

[This message has been edited by sbryce (edited September 18, 1999).]
 
Chink================
America is a democracy, everything is up for vote. If the majority of the people want something, then it should happen
=====================

Hmmm, when did this happen? I was always taught that The United States was a Constitutional Republic ... the closest anyone ever came was "democratic Republic" ... and where is this country called "America" found on the map?

Yes, I know what you meant, but part of the current success of the other side comes from the redefinition of the language into what they wat it to mean. Besides logic, we need to use the words that actually mean what we want to say. Terms like democracy and America (in place of "The U.S.") are what what they are. America is divided into two continents, North America and South America. ... Democracy is where the majority rules and the H*LL with minority rights ... Is that really the kind of country we want to live in?

I think not. This is more than simply a war on the legal front, or the emotional front. Rather it is a war on all fronts for the hearts and minds of the citizens of the United States of America.

This is the very basis of "gun violence" ... they want it to originally mean "the violence committed by someone with a gun" and the opposition has slowly, and purposely, transmuted it's meaning to "the violence committed by a gun" ... so we go from putting away criminals, to putting (taking) away guns.

As Snakebite stated in his rebuttal, there are many other quotes from the founders as to the intended meaning and purpose of the second amendment, pointing to the fact that they intended it to be a right of the people not of the militia. And that it was intended for the defense of liberty against such a time as tyranny might rear it's ugly head once more.

Personally, I think the Founders would have said "enough" a long time ago. In defence of this I submit http://www.tclsystems.com/FormationOfTheUnion/Declaration07061775.html
 
Color me really surprised (and at least a bit disappointed) that nobody has come up with this before I got here.

Chink:

"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

You say "The subject of the sentence is a well regulated militia, not the people." Dead wrong, both times. Back to high school English with you. The subject of the sentence is, in one word, "right". Expressed as an entire phrase, as you did, it is "the right of the people". The fact that the sentence is passive voice, or that it has another clause to clarify it ("a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state") does not alter the fact that what is being discussed here is the right. What is being mandated in reference to that right is not a well regulated militia, it is freedom from infringement.

Hark back to what the BoR is. The Preamble addresses "self evident truths", which means they need no permission or explanation from anybody. The second such truth mentioned is that each person comes into this world with certain rights which are "inalienable", and we're not speaking of extraterrestrials here, that means they cannot be removed at all, by anyone. Then were listed three examples as "AMONG those rights", indicating quite clearly that there were more of them. At the demand of the people, additional of those inalienable rights were codified and further protected by the BoR.

IOW, from a purely grammatical standpoint, taking the entire document (the Constitution, not the BoR alone) into consideration, the second amendment does not give anyone the right to keep and bear arms, since the Constitution itself holds that it is "self evident" that such right is held by everyone, and is "inalienable". What the second amendment does is to prohibit any INFRINGEMENT on that self evident inalienable right.

You know, infringement; like, registration, licencing fees, mandating barrel lengths or actions, limiting cartrige capacity, laws regarding storage or purchasing limits, silly stuff like that.

OOoops-forgot something, chink, regarding the "if the majority wants it" comment you made. Allow me to quote one of those people you apparently find unimportant:

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the people at large or considered as individuals...It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has the right to deprive them of." Alexander Addison, 1789.




[This message has been edited by Larry P. (edited September 19, 1999).]
 
Mr. P.

you "we hold these truths to be self-evident" line is from the declaration of independce. there is no preamble to the BoR as they are amendments to the Constitution.

snakebite

If I was old enough 10 years ago to care, i would have done something. 10 years ago i was 11 and my only care was play with my friends. So now do what I can to convert the next generation. I have given up on the generation before me, but I figure the people younger than me create the next set of voters and they can put in a pro gun legislature.

------------------
It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
 
Snakebite,

You hit the nail on the head. I printed out a copy of your original post so I can read it in the future when I need an "attitude check". Thanks!
 
Chink,

You say, "the people younger than me create the next set of voters and they can put in a pro gun legislature."

Yep! Dern tootin"! It worked for them dag-nabbed hippies - it can work for you.

But no need to fergit, son, that a few of us ole Grandpa types are with ya!

You just send them ole jerry-at-rick types t'one of us. We'll fix 'em or whup 'em one! ;)

See ya at the votin' place, son. :D

((Keep the faith, Chink!))

Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Spectre & sbryce, I respect your opinions on the matter, and would have agreed with you five years ago. I don't today.

Spectre: "The danger lies when statements like this are taken at face value by opposing forces."

--They should be taken at face value. I take the threats of gun grabbers at face value, don't you? When (not if) they come for your guns, you'll either give them up peaceably, or you'll fight. It will be your choice, not mine. When I can see that someone is preparing to attack me, I don't try to soothe them with kind words. That time has passed. Rather, I prepare to defend myself. Better yet, I prepare to go on the offensive and conduct a preemptive attack at just the right time. Timing is everything, and now is not the time.

Spectre: "We are fighting a war of words, gentlemen. Pray that we may win with words alone...but, we won't if we get too glib, too sarcastic, too ascerbic."

--I see your point. Unfortunately, our adversaries are not fighting with words. They're passing laws. And once a gun-control law is passed, and unless it is overturned in the courts, it will take the forces of both heaven and earth to change it. In other words, those anti-gun laws that have already passed in California, and which are not overturned on appeal, will likely remain in effect for years to come. So, this isn't merely a war of words; it's a war for the future of our nation. And we're losing.

sbryce: "Your answer works well for gun owners, but only makes things worse for people who are already afraid of our guns."

--In the long run, it doesn't matter. In the long run, the sheeple will vote for or acquiesce to a total ban on civilian ownership of guns, regardless of how persuasive our arguments are in the short run. In the long run, we'll be dead of old age, and our children will not have the benefit of either our weapons or our wisdom to regain rights they never had and thus never knew the value of having. Time is running out. Time is on the gun grabbers' side. Time is not on our side. Time we realized that...and the implications.
 
Snakebite,

Unlike some other forums, our goal here is peaceful change at the ballot box. That requires some restraint.

Making the uncommitted believe that gun owners want to shoot them is not in our best interest.

If we are to keep the unaware and uncommitted from fleeing to gun control advocates, then we must not appear to be the "crazies" depicted by our accusers.
 
Back
Top